Something about the new Ascian lore

[Remedi]

You are using the current society standards to rationalize an utopic society based on the abundance, I don't need to explain why that is flawed

[Alleo]

You are using the current society standards to rationalize an utopic society based on the abundance, I don't need to explain why that is flawed

Why should I not? Emet goes out of his way to tell us that they are perfect yet seemingly also had all our emotions. Just with small informations we see that they are still flawed. Also its a utopic society for him, but seemingly they also had problems, restrictions and more. If they have all the emotions we do, have disagreements..can create horrible slime monsters instead of the intended toy, restrict their people in their use of creation magic and force them to wear these robes and not their own creation, then why is it so hard to assume that conflict can arise there too?

If they are so perfect and great and the best, why did they not stop the apocalpyse before it was at their own door? Why did they not help their neighbors?

Also, in one of the side quests, an Amaurotine chides you for your flashy clothing because it encourages disparity, and talks about the spark of jealousy and violence that lurks in all our hearts.

Which means that, even if it was in the past, the idea of violence/conflict between people was known and their ancestors at least likely participated in it. It also states they acknowledge their own potential for such things.

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What I don't get is how they ever thought to break even with sacrificing the world's life. 75% of the population to get Zodiark to save and restore the world. Then, apparently, we later kill that saved world to get that 75% back? Doesn't that violate the purpose for which Zodiark was originally summoned? Wasn't Zodiark supposed to be a manifest embodiment of the world itself? If I were Zodiark, I'd have told them to piss off with that last one. Perhaps Zodiark had to grant its summoners wishes' (chicken and egg with gods/followers) or is that thirsty for aether (but, as a planetary primal, why would it need their permission?)?

I actually find myself disappointed.

At least I got great Mage: The Awakening vibes from the final zone and plot. Replace "Amaurot" with "Atlantis" and I've pretty much seen this conflict and arguments before.

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Also, I think it bears remembering that we're seeing Emet-Selch's memories of Amaurot, not the real thing. This doesn't mean it's a total lie, it is, in fact, likely history exactly as he remembers it. But as HE remembers it (and after millennia of longing and struggle in its name at that).

I actually like this. The notion of how subjective perception colors (or creates) reality is a perennially interesting one to me. Emet-Selch loved his people, his city, their values, and the sacrifice they made to save the planet. But I have to wonder how Amaurot would look constructed by the memories of a contemporary foreigner or one of the dissidents who eventually summoned Hydaelyn.

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Final point: The Amaurotine people sacrificed greatly, and nobly, to save and restore the planet. Looking at these two choices alone, Emet-Selch could have had a point about the difference in moral fiber between ancient and man-divided. But, on their third choice, the pro-Zodiark Amaurotine people throw this moral high ground away. They sought to UNDO the willing sacrifice their fellows made, and to push the burden for their actions onto future generations without their consent. All BEFORE there was any excuse about a divided star and degraded souls.

I put the rest of your post behind spoilers to not make the post too huge.

Anyway thanks for pointing that out too. This should be proof enough that there was conflict. Just maybe not that big as ours but honestly would ours even be that huge either if Ascians had no hands in it?

I really like that these sidequests and speech bubbles of the npcs show us a more realistic view of this city and their people. Emet wants them to be perfect, but it shows that it was not.

About Zodiark:

We also have to remember that the life sacrificed was only those that survived the apocalypse. So most would still be death. Seemingly the story tells us that at first half the remaining people sacrificed themselves and maybe they believed that it would be enough. But then after Zodiark stopped it they saw that their planet was ruined anyways and thus another half had to sacrifice themselves. We might never know if most of the people on the planet would have been fine with it. At the end of the very few of the old ones that were left, a bigger part must not have been fine with the continued sacrifice.

And I agree with you. Instead of treasuring the sacrifice that was done willingly to give their race a future, they trampeled on it to bring back the past..even at that point the remaining Ascians already did not care about any other generation than their own. It really shows how they keep holding onto the past instead of trying to cherish and accept the sacrifice (that they even created with their summoning of Zodiark..) to forge a new life for everyone else, they wanted to change that..

In the end the ancient ones even with their huge, endless power of creation were not able to stop the apocalypse without using something like Zodiark..maybe instead of ignoring the blight until its too late they could have banded together and created their own defensive creatures to defeat it. I thinkt they were just not able to truly work together as one team, united with one single goal in mind..and maybe that was, what the 14th member of the council wanted...seeing how our own character is someone that unites people, which can make a lot possible.

[Zackneifein]

If the theory that say the 14th member is the original holder of the soul of the WoL.
It could make sense that they have a similar persona.

And the conflict between the him/her and the other members of the Amarautine Council could be mirrored with the conflict between the WoL and some of his greatest ennemies that were manipulate by the Ascians.

The 13 members wanted Zodiark to be the supreme power able to resolve all their problem with his supreme might.
Gaius wanted to be the supreme leader able to resolve all Eorzea problems with his might and Ultima Arma, and it's mostly the same for Thordan VII being the supreme deity. Zenos is the only exception, probably because he is independant from the influences of the Ascian.

The irony is that to defeat the might of Gaius, Thordan VII... or Zodiark, it take the supreme might of the WoL... or Hydaelyn.
The difference is that the WoL inspire hope, along with their companions (everything about the WoL becoming a legend with unyielding spirit), where the others wanted to inspire fear.

If the Terminus is due (totally or partially) to the misuse of Creation Magic, fighting it back and giving hope to the others by doing it could have been a viable solution (where Amarautine people's where mostly apathetic in face of the Terminus).

[Elexander]

Not entirely related to the main topic, but food for thought nonetheless:

They keep saying they gave existence to the will of the star - the will of their world - and that became Zodiark. But have they even thought that manifesting the will of a sick, dying star would most likely bring about a being that represents that state of life?

Zodiark is darkness, and for a while I thought he might not be the bad guy we all are led to believe. But the more I know about him, the more I notice the Ascians are only sided with it because they're tempered, as everything Terminus (meaning in this use "from the End of something in space and/or time") in Amaurot screamed "Zodiark" to me. That's what I believe they summoned, in the end: something attuned to the end of the world, willing to stop it in demand of greater and greater sacrifices. It's like appeasing a bloodthristy deity with gradual death, rather than the entire world at once.

My point is, in the end, did Zodiark really "save" the world from dying or was it all just his doing from the very first, halted for his own amusement? We can't really ask that the Ascians, considering they're eternally enthralled to it's will and their response will most likely be influenced by that.

[Ilenya]

My point is, in the end, did Zodiark really "save" the world from dying or was it all just his doing from the very first, halted for his own amusement? We can't really ask that the Ascians, considering they're eternally enthralled to it's will and their response will most likely be influenced by that.

This would only work if Zodiark (As the will of the star) existed before Emet-Selch claimed they created him. What you are doing in the dungeon were steps leading up to Zodiark's creation, so they couldn't have been started by him because he didn't exist yet. From my understanding, Zodiark did exactly what they hoped. He was created, and stopped the Calamity. Now it's possible that there was a true will of the star before Zodiark (Terminus, maybe?) that was causing the Calamity, but there's nothing showing that is the case.

[WanderingStar]

This would only work if Zodiark (As the will of the star) existed before Emet-Selch claimed they created him. What you are doing in the dungeon were steps leading up to Zodiark's creation, so they couldn't have been started by him because he didn't exist yet. From my understanding, Zodiark did exactly what they hoped. He was created, and stopped the Calamity. Now it's possible that there was a true will of the star before Zodiark (Terminus, maybe?) that was causing the Calamity, but there's nothing showing that is the case.

I actually think you're on to something and I thought it myself.

The NPCs in Amaurot discuss a "Cacophony" that is being heard across the world and suddenly causing the immortal beings to lose control of their creation magicks and manifest terrible monsters. The true villain, the thing we REALLY should wonder about is not the Ascians or Zodiark. It's whoever or whatever started this chain of events.

On a side note, I don't think it's a coincidence that this event was called a "Cacophony" and the Echo is named the Echo. I don't know what the correlation is exactly yet but...yeah. That's not an accident in my opinion.

[Ilenya]

I actually think you're on to something and I thought it myself.

The NPCs in Amaurot discuss a "Cacophony" that is being heard across the world and suddenly causing the immortal beings to lose control of their creation magicks and manifest terrible monsters. The true villain, the thing we REALLY should wonder about is not the Ascians or Zodiark. It's whoever or whatever started this chain of events.

On a side note, I don't think it's a coincidence that this event was called a "Cacophony" and the Echo is named the Echo. I don't know what the correlation is exactly yet but...yeah. That's not an accident in my opinion.

I had made a (rather far-fetched, admittedly) bit of speculation in another thread about it, in regards to the initial cause. It was in regards to the Lifestream having not existed until after Zodiark and/or Hydaelyn had made the it (I've forgotten which it was).

The gist of it was, before the Lifestream, the souls of the dead Ancients didn't actually go anywhere. They ended up just sort of hanging around the planet, and just the effects of so much raw uncontrolled power eventually pushed things to the breaking point. The Lifestream forcibly channeled the souls somewhere, thus fixing the main issue.

Hydaelyn, to me, seems like an aether leech at this point.

I'm not saying this is wrong, but again, I've wondered; do Zodiark and Hydaelyn need a constant source of Aether, or, as creations of...Creation Magicks, are they not bound by the same rules that the Primals we know are?