Something about the new Ascian lore

[Remedi]

You both don't buy it fair, but there should some proofs of it or it remains conjectures. The only real conflict happened with zodiark and hydaelyn and the only real disagreement between conculmembers which is reported to be unheard of happened for the solution to the calamity and that's the end of it.

[Rannie]

With what I got out of it was the reason Hydaelyn was summoned was to stop and counter act the council of 13 from using Zodiark to sacrifice the NEW life that was created after 75% or so of the ascian population willingly gave up their lives to:

1: stop the calamity that befell them (which I'm starting to think was of their own making with their constant creating themselves) that took half their people.

2: bring back to life a now dead world caused by that said Calamity.

So with all that, and including the quest about morality and practicality vrs, for lack of a better term, seculsionism and self interest, it doesnt seem to be a stretch at all that the conflict arose and yes that can be considered a huge conflict.

Morality conundrums you have got to love them...

[Sathona]

Hydaelyn being willing to completely snuff the Ascians from the pages of history by refusing to reveal their motives and what happened to them is what seals the deal for me. She simply cannot be trusted. She's a Primal. A false deity. A parasite to be cut out so that the reins of history can be firmly placed into the hands of man for better or for worse.

I sense much evil from this walking one.

[Jaywalker]

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Honestly all of this is a matter of how you look at it too. Obstacles and limits offer perspective and opportunities for growth that could not be obtained through other means. Conflict gives perspective to peace, death to life, grief to joy. And vice versa.

Emet-Selch sees humanity as broken and limited compared to the original Ascians. That could be flipped around to argue the original Ascians were primitive and embryonic, not having grown through the experiences afforded to mortal lives.

He believes that his catastrophe means all subsequent catastrophes against people with limitations are justified, because maybe he can remove those limits to fix the original one. In reality it's just making more catastrophes for everyone to deal with, more pain, more problems, and even if he succeeded--the rejoined Ascian souls still would have endured all of his calamities and their own mortal lives. I doubt they'd be able to just go back to the way things were.

As an immortal, Emet-Selch has never really managed to cope with grief. WoL is shown at points lamenting the people who couldn't be saved and being unable to turn the clock back, but WoL uses that loss as fuel to protect people going forward. Emet-Selch never gets to a point of seeing a future without Amaurot. He never manages to connect to the new world or recognize value in it because he can only see things lost, rendered totally blind to things gained. Part of the tragedy is that it isn't even for lack of effort.

Alphinaud is a teen boy challenging an immortal. He's not wrong but this stuff just got presented to him and I'm willing to cut him slack for going with sincerity when he didn't get to formulate a full debate. Even if he did have a fully prepared counter-argument ready, the odds of Emet-Selch being open-minded and calm enough to absorb it is iffy. Upset people tend to not always register stuff that challenges their way of thinking and Emet-Selch has had a few millenia to get increasingly upset.

[Alleo]

You both don't buy it fair, but there should some proofs of it or it remains conjectures. The only real conflict happened with zodiark and hydaelyn and the only real disagreement between conculmembers which is reported to be unheard of happened for the solution to the calamity and that's the end of it.

Well one proof is simply that at the end of their days one high council member left them. This is conflict, which you put down as nitpicking before.
There is that one NPC that I mentioned that is not sure if they wont regret living in the city. Also there will be conflict if you dont wear their robes even as children.
And then there is simply them not really helping the other cities and waiting until they are under attack in their own town. This surely meant more violence and death outside of their gates and the increase of the monsters which (as Emet points out) came out of their fear. In the end the disaster that happened might have been partly to their own doing.

Edit: In the end they have our emotions..which includes the negative ones too. Maybe people were better in Amaurot but this was not the whole world. They restricted the use of creation magic quite a bit and it was frowned upon if people were showing to be proud of their creations..You just need a handful of people that grew sick of not being truly allowed to be proud..maybe even just someone that was curious about something..that surely will lead to conflict in some way. And look at Lahabrea...of course after so much tragedy someone can change quite a bit..but I have a hard time seeing him as a kind man..and as long as these different views, these different characters exist, then conflict will exist too. And with creation magic thrown into this, they might have doomed themselves.

[Remedi]

You are using the current society standards to rationalize an utopic society based on the abundance, I don't need to explain why that is flawed

[dragoelete]

i wouldnt see it as a utopia ... there was essentially no sense of self which in return dulls the personality. the was no conflict which made it so they couldnt truly grow the only conflict they had most of the time was debate (as far as we know but it could be emet either didnt know of it or he purposefully overlooks it.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Conflict did exist because one member already left the council in disagreement. This might not be a violent conflict, but its still one. And they do have the same emotions we have so its really hard to take that no other conflict ever came up, maybe not in their city but that was not the only place in the world.

And the conflict between the two crystals was between two sides of the same race. That alone at least shows that they are quite similiar to us.

Also, in one of the side quests, an Amaurotine chides you for your flashy clothing because it encourages disparity, and talks about the spark of jealousy and violence that lurks in all our hearts.

Which means that, even if it was in the past, the idea of violence/conflict between people was known and their ancestors at least likely participated in it. It also states they acknowledge their own potential for such things.

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What I don't get is how they ever thought to break even with sacrificing the world's life. 75% of the population to get Zodiark to save and restore the world. Then, apparently, we later kill that saved world to get that 75% back? Doesn't that violate the purpose for which Zodiark was originally summoned? Wasn't Zodiark supposed to be a manifest embodiment of the world itself? If I were Zodiark, I'd have told them to piss off with that last one. Perhaps Zodiark had to grant its summoners wishes' (chicken and egg with gods/followers) or is that thirsty for aether (but, as a planetary primal, why would it need their permission?)?

I actually find myself disappointed.

At least I got great Mage: The Awakening vibes from the final zone and plot. Replace "Amaurot" with "Atlantis" and I've pretty much seen this conflict and arguments before.

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Also, I think it bears remembering that we're seeing Emet-Selch's memories of Amaurot, not the real thing. This doesn't mean it's a total lie, it is, in fact, likely history exactly as he remembers it. But as HE remembers it (and after millennia of longing and struggle in its name at that).

I actually like this. The notion of how subjective perception colors (or creates) reality is a perennially interesting one to me. Emet-Selch loved his people, his city, their values, and the sacrifice they made to save the planet. But I have to wonder how Amaurot would look constructed by the memories of a contemporary foreigner or one of the dissidents who eventually summoned Hydaelyn.

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Final point: The Amaurotine people sacrificed greatly, and nobly, to save and restore the planet. Looking at these two choices alone, Emet-Selch could have had a point about the difference in moral fiber between ancient and man-divided. But, on their third choice, the pro-Zodiark Amaurotine people throw this moral high ground away. They sought to UNDO the willing sacrifice their fellows made, and to push the burden for their actions onto future generations without their consent. All BEFORE there was any excuse about a divided star and degraded souls.

[QT_Melon]

Honestly, both sides have not been exactly forthcoming with all the information (of course this is to continue said plot). I am not about the Ascians plan, but I'm wary of Hydaelyn as well.

I mean I think either it was assumed that Zodiark would be the counteract for Hydaelyn but instead was defeated. It may be a different failsafe was set in for her.

Hear.
Think.
Feel.

Us the WoL.

[Alleo]

You are using the current society standards to rationalize an utopic society based on the abundance, I don't need to explain why that is flawed

Why should I not? Emet goes out of his way to tell us that they are perfect yet seemingly also had all our emotions. Just with small informations we see that they are still flawed. Also its a utopic society for him, but seemingly they also had problems, restrictions and more. If they have all the emotions we do, have disagreements..can create horrible slime monsters instead of the intended toy, restrict their people in their use of creation magic and force them to wear these robes and not their own creation, then why is it so hard to assume that conflict can arise there too?

If they are so perfect and great and the best, why did they not stop the apocalpyse before it was at their own door? Why did they not help their neighbors?

Also, in one of the side quests, an Amaurotine chides you for your flashy clothing because it encourages disparity, and talks about the spark of jealousy and violence that lurks in all our hearts.

Which means that, even if it was in the past, the idea of violence/conflict between people was known and their ancestors at least likely participated in it. It also states they acknowledge their own potential for such things.

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What I don't get is how they ever thought to break even with sacrificing the world's life. 75% of the population to get Zodiark to save and restore the world. Then, apparently, we later kill that saved world to get that 75% back? Doesn't that violate the purpose for which Zodiark was originally summoned? Wasn't Zodiark supposed to be a manifest embodiment of the world itself? If I were Zodiark, I'd have told them to piss off with that last one. Perhaps Zodiark had to grant its summoners wishes' (chicken and egg with gods/followers) or is that thirsty for aether (but, as a planetary primal, why would it need their permission?)?

I actually find myself disappointed.

At least I got great Mage: The Awakening vibes from the final zone and plot. Replace "Amaurot" with "Atlantis" and I've pretty much seen this conflict and arguments before.

-------------------------------------

Also, I think it bears remembering that we're seeing Emet-Selch's memories of Amaurot, not the real thing. This doesn't mean it's a total lie, it is, in fact, likely history exactly as he remembers it. But as HE remembers it (and after millennia of longing and struggle in its name at that).

I actually like this. The notion of how subjective perception colors (or creates) reality is a perennially interesting one to me. Emet-Selch loved his people, his city, their values, and the sacrifice they made to save the planet. But I have to wonder how Amaurot would look constructed by the memories of a contemporary foreigner or one of the dissidents who eventually summoned Hydaelyn.

-------------------------------------

Final point: The Amaurotine people sacrificed greatly, and nobly, to save and restore the planet. Looking at these two choices alone, Emet-Selch could have had a point about the difference in moral fiber between ancient and man-divided. But, on their third choice, the pro-Zodiark Amaurotine people throw this moral high ground away. They sought to UNDO the willing sacrifice their fellows made, and to push the burden for their actions onto future generations without their consent. All BEFORE there was any excuse about a divided star and degraded souls.

I put the rest of your post behind spoilers to not make the post too huge.

Anyway thanks for pointing that out too. This should be proof enough that there was conflict. Just maybe not that big as ours but honestly would ours even be that huge either if Ascians had no hands in it?

I really like that these sidequests and speech bubbles of the npcs show us a more realistic view of this city and their people. Emet wants them to be perfect, but it shows that it was not.

About Zodiark:

We also have to remember that the life sacrificed was only those that survived the apocalypse. So most would still be death. Seemingly the story tells us that at first half the remaining people sacrificed themselves and maybe they believed that it would be enough. But then after Zodiark stopped it they saw that their planet was ruined anyways and thus another half had to sacrifice themselves. We might never know if most of the people on the planet would have been fine with it. At the end of the very few of the old ones that were left, a bigger part must not have been fine with the continued sacrifice.

And I agree with you. Instead of treasuring the sacrifice that was done willingly to give their race a future, they trampeled on it to bring back the past..even at that point the remaining Ascians already did not care about any other generation than their own. It really shows how they keep holding onto the past instead of trying to cherish and accept the sacrifice (that they even created with their summoning of Zodiark..) to forge a new life for everyone else, they wanted to change that..

In the end the ancient ones even with their huge, endless power of creation were not able to stop the apocalypse without using something like Zodiark..maybe instead of ignoring the blight until its too late they could have banded together and created their own defensive creatures to defeat it. I thinkt they were just not able to truly work together as one team, united with one single goal in mind..and maybe that was, what the 14th member of the council wanted...seeing how our own character is someone that unites people, which can make a lot possible.