Dark Knight follow up thread

[DRKoftheAzure]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/393024-Why-I-think-Shadowbringers-Dark-Knight-is-not-going-to-be-fun...

The link is the long version, but short version is DRK is VERY SLOW AND VERY CLUNKY to play, even once you get your AoE combo...


I can only imagine how clunky it's going to be at level 80...


Can we get Dark Arts spam back please?


But seriously skills that make DRK very slow/clunky are the following;


-Unleash and Stalwart Soul (spells that does not scale off of skillspeed making it slow and provide no real benefit outside of MP and blood generation and only get the bonus once it it confirms you got at least one enemy also making it clunky)

-Blood Weapon (No longer generates MP or blood on auto attacks or abilities that do damage and no longer provides haste, making it VERY SLOW)


-Flood/Edge of Darkness/Shadow (2 second recast oGCD abilities that grants Darkside, and costs MP when they should be GCD and cost NO MP and just refresh Darkside timer, therefore making these abilities clunky)


-Living Dead (The worst ultimate job skill in the game due to it's effect;
"Grants the effect of Living Dead. When HP is reduced to 0 while under the effect of Living Dead, instead of becoming KO'd, your Status will change to Walking Dead.
Living Dead Duratation: 10s
While under the effect of Walking Dead, most attacks will not lower your HP below 1. If, before the Walking Dead timer runs out, HP is 100% restored, the effect will fade. If 100% is not restored, you will be KO'd.
Walking Dead Duration: 10s

This ability sounds like a Necromancer skill... Everyone and their mother hates this ability for what it does, therefore making this ability clunky)


-Salted Earth (Recast timer is too high, duration too short and potency is too weak making it like Unleash and Stalwart Soul spells, slow and clunky)


-Abyssal Drain (oGCD ability that should be an GCD making it clunky)


-Carve and Spit (this ability would normally get a pass but it no longer deserves to be an oGCD due to how long its animation therefore making it clunky)


-Delirium (No longer restores MP and no longer extends Blood Weapon and is a WORSE Inner Release)


-The Blackest Night(Proc that REQUIRES THE SHIELD TO BREAK TO GET REWORKED DARK ARTS WHICH ONLY GIVES YOU A FREE FLOOD/EDGE OF DARKNESS/SHADOW WHICH IS SO STUPID AND INFURATING!!!! Also makes it VERY, VERY CLUNKY)


-Living Shadow (by far the second worst ultimate job skill in the game due to what it does, which the sort version is Dark Knights version of Bahamut, and also sounds like a Necromancer skill, therefore making this ability clunky, Dark Knights don't need their own version of Demi- Bahamut...)




EDIT: I forgot to mention Blood Weapon and Delirium on the first go...

[Kidria]

I had a fairly long and detailed reply but before I bother with til you explain what, exactly, you mean by "clunky" because I'm starting to not get what you mean. You use it everywhere and paste it into even the slightest thing ("long animation" that has been the same animation since it came out? Proc requiring a break as it always did? "Sounds like a Necromancer skill"??) so now I don't even get what you're trying to say.

[shao32]

Well idk about his concerns but DRK have problems with his new kit, on delirium you can't double weave or you are going to miss a bloodspiller if you ping is high, you need to hit 5 GCD on blood weapon or you gonna lose a fair amount of resources and for some reasons they can't pull with unmend I believe is was about TA and blood weapon stuff I didn't read that much.

So in resume the new design is clunky bcs most resources and damage are tied to bloodweapon and delirium making miss one single GCD on one of those hurt you dps and the flow of the Job, just another proof of how bad new delirium and blood weapon are.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Well idk about his concerns but DRK have problems with his new kit, on delirium you can't double weave or you are going to miss a bloodspiller if you ping is high, you need to hit 5 GCD on blood weapon or you gonna lose a fair amount of resources and for some reasons they can't pull with unmend I believe is was about TA and blood weapon stuff I didn't read that much.

So in resume the new design is clunky bcs most resources and damage are tied to bloodweapon and delirium making miss one single GCD on one of those hurt you dps and the flow of the Job, just another proof of how bad new delirium and blood weapon are.

That's right completely forgot about Blood Weapon and Delirium... I'm dumb...

[Nedkel]

Have someone did a average APM count in a duty for 4 different tanks so that we could compare it?

Btw you just listed almost all his offensive skills and abilities, the same that SB DRK had.

[Awful]

Honestly anything is better than SB DRK that one was just not fun (at least for me) I like ShB DRK, I like its kit, I like its abilities, TBN is INSANE right now as an OT taking all the TBs in the EX trials. Not to mention the tanks atm aren't ahead of each other at all, and if they are it's like what 150 DPS at max?

Tanks are in a good spot right now couldn't be happier.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Honestly anything is better than SB DRK that one was just not fun (at least for me) I like ShB DRK, I like its kit, I like its abilities, TBN is INSANE right now as an OT taking all the TBs in the EX trials. Not to mention the tanks atm aren't ahead of each other at all, and if they are it's like what 150 DPS at max?

Tanks are in a good spot right now couldn't be happier.

I actually prefer Stormblood Dark Knight over Shadowbringers Dark Knight, but I also prefer Heavensward Dark Knight over the other 2... but that's just my personal opinion...


Also tanks with basically only 1 single target combo path and only 1 AoE combo path are very boring in my opinion as well... then again I also find WAR boring...

[ADVSS]

Gameplay doesnt really change from 70-80 after you get stalwart soul, thats pretty much how its going to be. Personally the DA spam was probably the dev's fault, as in HW you couldnt just DA every single ability(ieA plunge for more enmity-why?) That being said. they also lowered or eliminated its use for any defensive or utility abilities in SB by either deleting those skills, or whatever else.(ie Dark Dance, dark passenger blind, etc) They dont really have to bring DA spam back to give it a better feel. They could put all mp spenders on instant like edge or flood and have DA give a free mp spender, users choice. They could put AD into the blood spenders so its available for use in the delirium window for that original feel of DRK for the last 4 years. Theres things they can do to synergize and shift Blood and MP resources to bridge them, for instance. Not sure if that would make it "better" to play, but thats what I would have done. I think that only having 2 bloodspenders , is kind of a wasted potential but mayber others dont see it that way. Bloodspiller pales in comparison to Fell/Nasty Cleave. Dark Missionary is there, but Id have much preferred an all damage, aoe TBN(weaker% per target but when each one pops provide a little mp and/or blood) just stuff like that.

[MaraD_]

DRK definitely has its history with being "Clunky" but clunky doesnt simply mean "I dislike this thing".
To give an analogy thats not in game terms;
Think of a jigsaw puzzle.
Each piece fits together right, if its the correct piece. and if its the wrong piece, it doesnt fit. "CLUNKY" would be the creator of the puzzle making most of the jigsaw, and had a few missing pieces. They make some new pieces to fit the missing spots, but they arent quite a good fit. They can be jammed in, and sort of fit. And at quick glance, the image on them sorta fits, giving the general image the jigsaw was trying to show. (once completed)
That would be "clunky".
What is "not" clunky, are pieces that fit perfectly, but has horribly awful colors on them, badly clashing with the colors of the surrounding pieces.
If the piece fits, and the image still remains perfect, picking the pieces that happen to have too much purple on them, doesnt make them "clunky".

Unleash not using skill speed, while most tank gear had skill speed, is an example of clunky.
Having skills with long enough animations they clip the GCD, but their timer lines up to always clip, or clip most of the time, and waiting till the next GCD leads to a DPS loss, is clunky.
Having a oGCD which lowers the GCD so long animations clip even more... etc
Those all "work" but clearly werent fully polished like a well designed machine. They meet the bare minimum requirements.

Delirium, as stupid as it is, works perfectly as a lesser inner release.
It doesnt require you spam oGCDs like WAR, so you're free to use them, rather than save them, or save them if need be.
It doesnt clash with any other aspect of DRK.

BUT it does give DRK a lack of identity.

Its like when tanks were made in 2.0.
They didnt give tanks specialties, and they were just a bit of everything.
(Over time, they both added, and removed identities. I only mentioned this, to show how they started off with the mentality of, lets give them a little bit of everything, Rather than focus on one thing, and make them all work with eachother effectively.)
The exception being WARs infuriate+zerk+tank stance+equilibrium, which is probably the best example of abilities playing off eachother really well, and giving an identity.

I do agree DRK is all over the place with its mashed together attempt at "Mechanical/gameplay identity", clunky in certain places, and its aesthetic is even a bit jumbled around kinda. (I say kinda, because its job quests tend to make it pretty stable within the games world/lore)

DRKs blood weapon was a good candidate to be the "haste" tank, with a 2s GCD. Instead of a constant 10% dmg from dark side, a constant -20% GCD time would have been better. (adjust over all dmg accordingly)
Also, all tanks have 1 tank buster CD on short CD, 1 invulnerability CD, and 2 mid duration/CD mitigations.
Instead, they should have varied that up a bit.
The one with the shorted invuln (which should have been living dead) should have a short CD mitigation they can continuously use for just about everything.
Not having the extra mid type mitigations.
There should have been one which had to alternate between a bunch of longer CDs.
And one which alternated between a few middle length CDs.

There's other fields, but id be typing all day.
So anyways, I agree DRK was still disappointing for me, when compared to both HWs clever design, and SBs "speed" design (and I hated SB design)

EDIT: on a side note, something done to help separate the tanks is what I noticed. (thought was there, read this thread, thought it wasnt there, then double checked, and it is there)
PLD
buff for Magical spam
buffs for Physical spam

DRK
buff for GCD spam
buff for oGCD spam

WAR
buff for everything fits in this spam

all 3 have a "spam" window, but all 3 have a slightly different flavor in that window from the other.

EDIT#2 corrected the mistake on BW.

[MerlinCross]

What about Gunbreaker then? What spam should it fall into?