What have you done?

[T-Owl]

DRK doesn't.

Why'd you feel guilty about being MT? Heck, if you're DRK you should feel punished for being OT, you want TBN to pop don't you?
I don't see why you should feel bad about using VIT materia, or even chosing not to use STR accessories unless you're one of those that worry about the meta.
Why is using Tank Stance BAD?!?! Even as OT, turning it on would blunt some AoE damage. Unless you're one of those that follow the FFLOGs.

All and all, your complaints seem based around community group think than anything in the game.

I mean, before using tankstance was rather selfish, wasn't it? You could tank perfectly well without it and it just put an extra strain on dps because they have compensate for the damage the tank didn't want to do.

[MerlinCross]

I mean, before using tankstance was rather selfish, wasn't it? You could tank perfectly well without it and it just put an extra strain on dps because they have compensate for the damage the tank didn't want to do.

Using our Mechanic/stance is selfish? I could say the reverse and say not using it put extra strain on Healers cause they have to compensate for the extra damage the tanks are taking.

You could tank without it but why would you want to? Unless you want to see how you do on FFlogs which in that case I'd say you're a WAR or a DPS that got lost on class selection.

[Quri]

Using our Mechanic/stance is selfish? I could say the reverse and say not using it put extra strain on Healers cause they have to compensate for the extra damage the tanks are taking.

You could tank without it but why would you want to? Unless you want to see how you do on FFlogs which in that case I'd say you're a WAR or a DPS that got lost on class selection.

But healers where fine with tanks tanking in dps stance. So long as you use cooldowns on tank busters. This coming from an ultra casual player.

[T-Owl]

Using our Mechanic/stance is selfish? I could say the reverse and say not using it put extra strain on Healers cause they have to compensate for the extra damage the tanks are taking.

You could tank without it but why would you want to? Unless you want to see how you do on FFlogs which in that case I'd say you're a WAR or a DPS that got lost on class selection.

Maybe you should not comment on something you don't know anything about, because you have no grasp on how raids worked. Every casual heal from extreme content onwards was easily able to heal the tanks and do dps as well. That was actually required for many dps checks and enrage timers, you know? And the dps loss of tank stance far outweight the potential dps loss of healers had due to increased damage received.

Basic healer and tank dps was necessary for many encounters with enrage timers and actually trying to optimize your damage acted as a hugh relieve for dps, especially in casual groups, where the required damage before enrage by far exceeded what a casual dps could hope to archieve. So yeah, tank stance and pure healing were highly selfish playstyles that put an unnecessary strain on anyone else in the party.

Sorry that you probably have no idea what you are talking about and probably never did any content above msq dungeons, otherwise you would have known. Tanks and Healers doing and optimizing damage is not some FFlogs emeter thing, this is a selfish or lazy players strawman. Doing as much damage as you can do while fulfilling your primary role in a group is an additional support for the entire party, especially for your fellow dps.

I think forcing casual dps to beat the enrage timers in most encounters without the additional support of dps stance tanking and healer dps would have been outright sadistic.

[MerlinCross]

But healers where fine with tanks tanking in dps stance. So long as you use cooldowns on tank busters. This coming from an ultra casual player.

I like to think I'm also pretty casual but in my experience no one has ever yelled at me for MT'ing in tank stance over "Oh no you didn't do enough damage, why you fail us tank?". I also know I've had heart attacks when the Tank runs in after a wipe without Tank Stance. Weird he didn't argue that he wanted to do more damage when the group reminded him.

snip

"For your fellow DPS"

I'm sorry. Did I enter the wrong section? *Checks*, no I'm in Tank section. Why should I count as a DPS as Tank? Hello?

You are however right in a way. I don't usually do Savage. I do the normal 8 man raids, and the 24 man. And you know I know this is one person's experience but I don't recall anyone yelling at me for having Tank Stance on when I'm being the MT. Oh I've had plently of people tell me and at times insult me if I forget to turn it on but actually having it on? No I don't think anyone has gone "Turn your stance off, we can't win otherwise.". Hmm, if random people I do DF normal causal raids with aren't the most causal people(myself included) and they aren't telling me that I should be turning off my Tank Stance, who IS telling me I should be turning off my tank stance?

You don't need to tell me. I already know. The same people that followed the STR Accessory meta back in Heavensward.

Personally I think making the Tanks just meaty DPS is the wrong way but hey, Tanks are probably easier to gauge on meters than DPS who have to dance around.

I like to think of myself as Causal. I mean I'm probably going to take another week to clear the expansion or so. I've only cleared A9S and 05S. And even before I tried to push as much damage as was possible in tank stance if I was MT. I'll continue to try to push as much damage now with the Tank changes.

My first job however is to use my CD's to blunt incoming damage. It's not holding Aggro anymore so my focus is on Not dying or giving my Healers heart failures. But I'm probably still going to get complaints about how I, a causal, should be helping the causal DPS out more because of timers, and progress, and yadda yadda. I am casual. Why should I suddenly become expert pro raider if the DPS aren't pulling their weight?

In the words of another series; "Get. Good". My job is to make it easier for the healer to keep me alive, my job isn't to carry you across the finish line.

[RyuDragnier]

DRK doesn't.

That's subjective. IMO it's infinitely better than the horrible "spam DA" nonsense DRK was in SB. I mained DRK in HW, and quit it because of how bad it was in SB. The current iteration, while not near HW's high standards, is actually enjoyable to me.

[DeWinter1]

I like to think I'm also pretty casual but in my experience no one has ever yelled at me for MT'ing in tank stance over "Oh no you didn't do enough damage, why you fail us tank?". I also know I've had heart attacks when the Tank runs in after a wipe without Tank Stance. Weird he didn't argue that he wanted to do more damage when the group reminded him.



"For your fellow DPS"

I'm sorry. Did I enter the wrong section? *Checks*, no I'm in Tank section. Why should I count as a DPS as Tank? Hello?

You are however right in a way. I don't usually do Savage. I do the normal 8 man raids, and the 24 man. And you know I know this is one person's experience but I don't recall anyone yelling at me for having Tank Stance on when I'm being the MT. Oh I've had plently of people tell me and at times insult me if I forget to turn it on but actually having it on? No I don't think anyone has gone "Turn your stance off, we can't win otherwise.". Hmm, if random people I do DF normal causal raids with aren't the most causal people(myself included) and they aren't telling me that I should be turning off my Tank Stance, who IS telling me I should be turning off my tank stance?

You don't need to tell me. I already know. The same people that followed the STR Accessory meta back in Heavensward.

Personally I think making the Tanks just meaty DPS is the wrong way but hey, Tanks are probably easier to gauge on meters than DPS who have to dance around.

I like to think of myself as Causal. I mean I'm probably going to take another week to clear the expansion or so. I've only cleared A9S and 05S. And even before I tried to push as much damage as was possible in tank stance if I was MT. I'll continue to try to push as much damage now with the Tank changes.

My first job however is to use my CD's to blunt incoming damage. It's not holding Aggro anymore so my focus is on Not dying or giving my Healers heart failures. But I'm probably still going to get complaints about how I, a causal, should be helping the causal DPS out more because of timers, and progress, and yadda yadda. I am casual. Why should I suddenly become expert pro raider if the DPS aren't pulling their weight?

In the words of another series; "Get. Good". My job is to make it easier for the healer to keep me alive, my job isn't to carry you across the finish line.

If thats fine for you ok, but some other tanks wanted to be better then only standard and dps stance was the answer for that. Atleast for me. Makes most Raids easier for all if the Tank can do damage instead of just staying on one point and tank dmg without doing anything else.

[T-Owl]

snip

Are we really talking about normal content here? Like, seriously? What's next, discuss classes on the basis of MSQ scenarios?

If you think you are even a casual tank if you solely focus on using cds, then sorry. You are not. You are below casual. You are basically the guy who brain afks the entire run. For most of the time, you will only need your cds if you are undergeared or pull wall to wall in dungeons and if the boss uses a tankbuster, which is a normally a long cast which you can identify as a tankbuster by guessing or being hit by it one time. And then again, it really depends on what kind of healer you have. If the healer is purely healing, I actually don't give a fuck about mitigating anything and just purely focus on damage, because it doesn't matter how much damage I eat, as long as the healer isn't playing totally afk I can never receive more damage than he could heal me for outside of wall to wall pulls. The only reason you would even want to mitigate your damage and decrease the amount of healing you need to stay alive would be so that the healer can use more of their gcds for dps spells. I mean, this is literally the only reason you would mitigate in this kind of content, to creat more dps opportunities for your heal. I'm not even sure if there is any tankbuster in normal mode or alliance raid that can actually kill you. If the healer is not dpsing, there is not a single reason for mitigation because he will use his gcds for heals no matter what and all you do by not mitigating is force the heal to afk less.

I mean, you seriously don't know what you are talking about. Your definition of an expert pro raider is an actual casual player who casually raids extreme trials or even some savage raids. You are talking about content below casual, where the game makes it as hard for you too fail as possible. I mean, fuck, this is like if in WoW a LFR Raider would tell a normal raider that he is some elitist elite pro player. This is just delusional to lift yourself to a higher level than you actually play in.

I am a totally casual player. And I never had any problems with tanking in DPS Stance, trying to pull off my rotation and increase my damage and at the same time mitigating damage and avoiding aoes. And I did it, because I knew that without this kind of support, the dps in my groups would have a quite harder time to beat the enrage timer, this is why tanks and healers always should look for optimizing their dps.

I mean, in the words of another series: You should get good. You are the guy who is carried accross the finish lines and then leeched gear from people who actually gave a shit and maybe could have needed it more than you for doing their job as good as they can.

[Bright-Flower]

I can't speak for WAR or DRK, but PLD has only become more interesting and fun to play in SHB, not less so. Losing the enmity combo and shield swipe was a small price to pay for what we gained.

[Videra]

Why is using Tank Stance BAD?!?! Even as OT, turning it on would blunt some AoE damage.

Basic run-down of this comes down to simple logic. Blunting raid-wide AOE damage is and was basically meaningless. Dropping grit/going into your DPS stance was a massive DPS increase, and higher DPS = higher clear time. Something dies faster, that's a form of mitigation. This still applies but seeing as tank stances don't exist anymore, eh.