Which DRK was the best

[ADVSS]

I'll just reiterate my fav post from the last one, The one from Tactics: War of the Lion.

[gman1311]

My favorite Dark knight is the one from Bravely Default.

[ADVSS]

My favorite Dark knight is the one from Bravely Default.

Thats a good one too

[MPNZ]

Ok....

1. FFT: War of the Lions because of the self-sustain versus higher damage choices
2. Bravely Default: "to hell with you" would be so much better than living dead
3. FF3, FF4, Steiner
4. the Heavensward's DRK lv30-50
5. Stormblood
6. Monty python and the holy grail
7. The batman movies
8. Heavensward drk lv51-60

So, IMO, 3.0 Drk was a total frantic mess that wasted too much energy and movement for very little reward and lacks a lot of the self-sustain and sacrifice of previous incarnations

[Satarn]

What is the point of arguing which of the two was better between HW and SB? They both had their flaws and perks and the devs should've looked to both while making the SHB iteration rather than scrapping them altogether. What were the fun parts of HW, why were they removed and how could they be reworked to fit with how the game's changed? Which SB additions were good and what was too simplified? Most importantly, how can all these things be made to work with each other to create a cohesive whole?
You might have a preference, but you gotta admit neither was perfect, no job is.

Bickering about how "you only prefer SB because you didn't play HW" or "people look at HW with rose tinted glasses" doesn't actually help anything, it just makes DRK players look like whiny children who don't know what we want. Try to be constructive instead of fighting over which was better so we can have a set direction to push for, rather than getting stuck with the 5.0 mess.

[Tint]

Try to be constructive instead of fighting over which was better so we can have a set direction to push for, rather than getting stuck with the 5.0 mess.

This 5.0 mess is actually the logical consequence of what the community asked for.

Let's look at the history of DRK...

In 3.0 we had the automatic mana drain from Darkside and then we had Dark Arts to further spend our mana and give some skills additional effects.

Honestly that automatic mana drain didn't worked too well, I remember situations especially with many add waves, where you simply could not regenerate your mana properly. An in general it was a bit more difficult to play the job. So the Devs thought they should make DRK easier and more accesible. That was their idea for many jobs in SB anyway.

So in 4.0 they removed the automatic mana drain from Darkside and replaced it with a manual mana drain through Dark Arts.

But then the people complained that the job has too much Dark Arts spam and also that the additional effects of Power Slash and Dark Mind were a dps loss. So they removed the Dark Arts effects or gave it also the 140 potency boost.


What is now the logical way to expand on this?

Dark Arts is just a potency boost button now, so why not simly replace it with an actual off-GCD attack?

And the people don't want to spam Dark Arts a lot? Well, there is no way to go back to the automatic mana drain, so what else can they do? They have to reduce the mana gain, otherwise 5.0 DRK will be just the same button spam, just that the button is now called Edge of Shadow instead of Dark Arts.

Oh and Darkside is just a hit it once and then remove it from your hotbar skill? Why not add a timer, so you have to spend some mana once every 30 seconds to keep it up?


What I don't understand is the boring Inner Release copy. And the lack of selfheal. And that stupid magic mitigation only cooldown... and my person gripe are the magic AoE's, we have a giant sword, why can't we use it for AoE attacks?

But the underlying gameplay mechanic is a logical next step after SB. And catering to the people who quit DRK at the beginning of SB would be wrong in my eyes. They should cater to the people who actually play DRK now.

I will admit that HW DRK was a lot of fun and I liked the clear defined strenghts and weaknesses. And that he had physical only mechanics. They put as much care into designing his weakness as they did when they designed his strenght, it didn't felt like an afterthought.

[Giubba]

What is the point of arguing which of the two was better between HW and SB? They both had their flaws and perks and the devs should've looked to both while making the SHB iteration rather than scrapping them altogether. What were the fun parts of HW, why were they removed and how could they be reworked to fit with how the game's changed? Which SB additions were good and what was too simplified? Most importantly, how can all these things be made to work with each other to create a cohesive whole?
You might have a preference, but you gotta admit neither was perfect, no job is.

Bickering about how "you only prefer SB because you didn't play HW" or "people look at HW with rose tinted glasses" doesn't actually help anything, it just makes DRK players look like whiny children who don't know what we want. Try to be constructive instead of fighting over which was better so we can have a set direction to push for, rather than getting stuck with the 5.0 mess.

What's the point in spending countless hours writing about feedback that will not be taken in ANY kind of consideration ? Because let's be real for "fixing" DRK they should rework it again from the ground up altering skill function and that's something they never did. we aren't talking about changing potency or adding some secondary effect we are talking "Jesus f Christ take the whole class down and rework it again".


And what's so monstrous simply asking which whose the best one of 2 iteration of the same job? Because it's a question that it cannot be dismantled to math and graph and simulation on rotation?
Thanks God that fun it sill cannot be measured like this. There are at least 5 active thread were people are doing exactly that and i think having at least one thread where you can simply say "i like stormblood DRK" or "i like heavensward DRK" without the NEED of explain why, is worthy keeping active.

[Satarn]

What's the point in spending countless hours writing about feedback that will not be taken in ANY kind of consideration ? Because let's be real for "fixing" DRK they should rework it again from the ground up altering skill function and that's something they never did. we aren't talking about changing potency or adding some secondary effect we are talking "Jesus f Christ take the whole class down and rework it again".


And what's so monstrous simply asking which whose the best one of 2 iteration of the same job? Because it's a question that it cannot be dismantled to math and graph and simulation on rotation?
Thanks God that fun it sill cannot be measured like this. There are at least 5 active thread were people are doing exactly that and i think having at least one thread where you can simply say "i like stormblood DRK" or "i like heavensward DRK" without the NEED of explain why, is worthy keeping active.

Just saying "I don't like this and the job needs a complete rework!" is how you get skills and playstyle totally removed and replaced with an out of the left field copy of IR. People complained about how they dislike DA spam without trying to understand or explain why - so we got DA axed and MP management with it. Not to mention the fact that so many people come here saying they enjoyed HW/SB shows that it did not in fact require a ground-up rework. There already was good stuff to work with, it just needed refinement.

There's a few people here whom explained what exactly it was that they enjoyed and that is good - what I have issue with is the whole "my preferred version was better and you only disagree because you didn't play it!" etc.

[Lyth]

It's somewhat amusing when you realise that Dark Arts was probably the inspiration for Shinten, and now Shinten seems to be the inspiration for Edge of Shadow.

There were a few issues with Dark Arts. If you look at most of the Heavensward oGCDs, they were fairly short animation locks that flowed extremely well into the next GCD, creating a nearly seamless stream of attacks. Dark Arts is not. It's a bit like a 'wind-up' to punctuate the fact that the next attack is going to be a big one. So when you're forced to re-apply it after every GCD, it ends up making combat quite choppy. I don't know what the animation locks are like on the new EoS and FoS. I suspect that the 'flow' between GCDs and oGCDs is going to be a major factor in whether I like this rework or not.

The other issue is that with the removal of Darkside's MP drain, you ended up dealing with large swings in MP with a relatively small MP carrying capacity. So there was also this constant pressure to use Dark Arts to keep your MP in check. I think that when you take into account the fact that MP has been standardised to 10k across the board, the rate of MP generation doesn't seem unreasonable. The ability cost makes sense as well - when you factor in the Dark Arts proc and a MP storage capacity of three EoS/FoS, you've got enough space in reserve for burst purposes. I would have liked to have an ability with an MP cost in the 1k range which I could use to "tread water" just shy of max MP, but I think that's a minor point.

I don't really see the main draw of playing the job at the moment, though. The one thing that Heavensward and Stormblood had in common is that DRK felt fast. And now we're faced with a Riddle of Fire style gameplay change. But if we're going to be hitting slower and harder, are we the purpleflames equivalent to WAR's angryflames? There has to be more to it.

It's interesting seeing other iterations of DRK being brought up in this thread, like FFT WotL and Bravely Default. I personally think that FFT had the best representations of PLD and DRK respectively, without them necessarily being named as such. I really like the fact that PLD now has a proper suite of holy themed abilities that would make Agrias proud. I feel that DRK could be significantly be improved on if it actually committed to the resource stealing approach of Gafgarion and the Dark Knight job that was later built off of him in the remake.

I've said this before, but abilities like Bloodspiller and Quietus have the potential to be so much more than just Fell Cleave and Decimate knockoffs. They don't have to have the highest potency. They don't have to have guaranteed Critical Direct Hits attached. Have them steal some HP, have them steal some MP. Create interplay between your HP, MP, and blood.

Do you want to know one thing that a lot of people can agree on? SB DRK in AoE was pretty awesome. Pop TBN, negate some damage, gain some blood. Fuel that blood into Delirium, gain some more MP and blood through Blood Weapon. Use Quietus to convert some of that blood to MP, and steal back some more blood while you're at it. Pour that MP into Abyssal Drain. Too much MP? Blow some off into DA Dark Passenger, or maybe DA Quietus. HP getting a bit on the low side? DA Abyssal Drain, back up to full. But don't worry. TBN is back again, and you're taking no damage. It's an endless alchemy of HP, MP, and blood that flows from one form to another, defying the law of equivalent exchange at every turn. Do you know what was the biggest failing of SB DRK? You couldn't do this in single target.

In fact, I daresay that if you could make this happen in Shadowbringers, even Living Dead wouldn't feel as bad.

[Nedkel]

WAR mains didn't like HW DRK so much because there was the embarrassing possibility that you could get outplayed hard by your more skilled co-tank.

Making something harder to play doesnt mean it will become stronger, just saying.

I don't think you can make a fair judgement from reading about an experience viewed through rose-tinted lens.

Excuse me sir but you could in 100% experience the gameplay of the job by just looking at the skills descriptions. hehe
We already know how terrible and boring 5.0 DRK is going to be, even though we never played it.