Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Mansion]

And while I must begrudgingly admit that Enhanced Displacement and Weaponskill Mastery point to that being true, I am under no obligation to enjoy that fact.

But what exactly is complicated about "2 sec cast: Gain 3/3 Mana and deal damage over time for 30 sec"? Or even "Gain 1/1 Mana per tick"?

If anything I would think it would be a great way to introduce DoTs to people who made it to level 50 to unlock RDM without somehow ever casting a DoT effect.

Nothing complicated in itself, I agree. Now I'm quite enjoying a DPS job that has actually no DoT "for the sake of having one" (or a timer to maintain, whih rules out MCH). Looks like DNC will be that way, more Proc-based and thus won't need a DoT.
Seeing the 5.0 changes on RDM, I'm actually closer to simply "give it up" because though I wish for something more challenging in RDM's design, I don't see it coming and in the end, that's ok.
But I would have loved something like SAM : a basic rotation, but a huge DPS output potential when you really focus on optimizing DPS.

[Archwizard]

Nothing complicated in itself, I agree. Now I'm quite enjoying a DPS job that has actually no DoT "for the sake of having one" (or a timer to maintain, whih rules out MCH). Looks like DNC will be that way, more Proc-based and thus won't need a DoT.

I am curious about the thought process behind calling it a DoT "for the sake of having one". As I explained it seems a likely course of action should they seek to add more potency to the rotation in the future as an alternative to "Jolt III", aside from just buffing every spell with one Trait, especially with how DoTs can function as easy damage-tuning knobs.

Not to mention that between BLMs scoffing at maintaining their DoT amongst all of their other timers and SMN tying more and more of their DPS to maximizing theirs, RDM could be a happy medium, and nothing says a RDM DoT couldn't come with its own mechanics/benefits for maintaining it beyond Mana and damage. My bare-bones descriptions there were simply to illustrate the incredible ease of sliding one into the rotation, given that I've seen complaints before about how one 'wouldn't fit' or 'would be out of place' or whatnot -- and may also shine a light on minimum requirements of such DoTs to be useful without outshining other skills, of course.

At the very least a new spell addition to the base rotation wouldn't be unwelcome given the showing we've been given for Shadowbringers. Wow, one whole extra finisher soaked in Impactful's blood, gee thanks.

[Shurrikhan]

I am curious about the thought process behind calling it a DoT "for the sake of having one".

Any DoT which cannot both unique give and be given gameplay opportunities via their surrounding kit can pretty well be called a "DoT for the sake of having a DoT".

How easy it is to "slide in" to the kit means nothing if it doesn't also provide anything more than... a DoT.

Fair, and I too would much prefer any DoTs for DPS have associated mechanics -- especially since SMN already corners the market on maintaining DoT effects for their own sakes.

And I swear we came to this exact same conclusion 10 or so pages back...

Ha, probably so. My post links keep getting jostled around, it seems, by random mod deletions of posts I'd quoted in turn removing my posts as well, so it's getting hard to check my history when the links break down. And since the New Posts button is the only way I get back to any thread and my memory in this regard is rather poor, that was pretty necessary.
Edit: Only finding the discussion on status effects and diminishing returns within the last month or so. I remember that from much earlier on, too, though... iirc.

[Archwizard]

Any DoT which cannot both unique give and be given gameplay opportunities via their surrounding kit can pretty well be called a "DoT for the sake of having a DoT".

How easy it is to "slide in" to the kit means nothing if it doesn't also provide anything more than... a DoT.

Fair, and I too would much prefer any DoTs for DPS have associated mechanics -- especially since SMN already corners the market on maintaining DoT effects for their own sakes.

And I swear we came to this exact same conclusion 10 or so pages back...

[Archwizard]

Something I was thinking about last night (which may be a bit of a moot point now, but still):

Let's say the devs removed Engagement and the potency from Displacement, and put them all in Corps-a-corps or the melee combo.

Why would we ever want to use Displacement? As it is now, the backstep isn't really worth much, since the escape mechanism is only of use in niche situations. Unlike melee, there's no penalty to casters for being close to the target (aside from the increased risk of death in some instances), and the fact that we can attack from range is considered a reward in itself despite lack of incentive to really do so. As at least one person has mentioned already in this thread, they use Corps-a-corps to get that "sweet, sweet auto-attack damage", since RDM can afford to with its short casts.
{Sidenote, and with full understanding that our auto-attack damage is crap anyway and it's probably just to discourage caster auto-attacking: anyone else find it weird the auto-attack delay on Rapiers is super high? You would think it would be like, really fast but pathetically weak without using abilities...}

Now, without a complete rework to the dynamics of ranged and melee in general, not really much point in trying to tackle that just to give Displacement meaning.

Sure you could toss in a Stun or Heavy, but while that would be useful in some content like the overworld and dungeons, it's of little value in raids.
But at the same time, whatever value Displacement has shouldn't also be intrinsic to our performance, since we literally just removed the damage so we wouldn't feel penalized in situations where we can't backstep without dying.
I would think enmity, but the stance changes for tanks make that a near moot point too.

And then last night it finally hit me: If not for the reduced CD of Lucid Dreaming... what if Displacement somehow played with our MP?

CaC and Displacement each represent subtle transitions between melee and casting, without putting a hard Stance effect on either. While it's not a locked part of the combo, the example we're always shown is to CaC -> Enchanted Combo -> Displacement -> Verfinisher (and soon, add Scorch), the latter of which represent our hardest hits and second-largest period of MP consumption behind Verraising.
What if Displacement somehow marked the target so that your next spell against them restored or cost zero MP, or hits within a small period gave you some other non-damage bonus based on the damage dealt? MP consumption being an issue of little concern for RDM (allowing you to skip Displacement at no penalty), but still adding some personal benefit to using it at that point.

Just food for thought I guess.

[Shurrikhan]

Just food for thought I guess.

I'm a bit biased towards even rarely used utilities, such as Repelling Shot (if it actually functioned decently) or even Earth Tackle (again, if the iteration itself had merely been decent), but I see your point here.

Though, more than that, I generally prefer that if something is badly situational, but at least impactful in that rare situation, it ought to remain... situational, rather than sacrifice its rare efficacy just to append an animation or button-press to some other capacity.

In this case, especially, I'd rather have simply seen RDM have additional melee forms and skills that would replace their ranged casted options when within melee distance of enemies. These would in some cases, or points in macrorotation, be situationally inferior (as they're compensating for mobility, a bit more decisive utility in some cases, and more immediate damage), but would nonetheless remain options, leading up until Enspell as a means to spend the B/W Mana generated. In that way, Displacement remains significant just for easily moving in and out of range, since your distance would actually... matter.

Not sure how relevant it will be, but I remembered another thought-snack of my own from a few months ago which revolved around a Phalanx trait. But first, mechanical context:

• Block and Parry are returned as (hidden) stats and now, like Stormblood Critical Hit, increase both the efficacy and chance of Block and Parry.
• Block and Parry now also diminish damage taken by a small flat amount based on weapon damage or block strength. Percentile mitigation reduced to 15%. This and the percentile mitigation are affected by Block and Parry stat.
• Given main-hand and shield item level, Block and Parry now mitigate for identical amounts. Paladin just has a passively doubled chance of RNG mitigation.
• New mechanic - Guard. Guard instantly generates a massive amount of Block or Parry (hidden stat), generally well in excess of 100%. You can consider this influx of Block or Parry stat as almost a damage-absorption barrier. As damage is absorbed by Guard, the Block or Parry stat granted will diminish in kind, thereby taking from both chance and potency of
• New mechanic - Shield. Shield guarantees either Block or Parry until having absorbed damage up to its given cap. It therefore has no aspect of chance. Shield generated is increased by base Block or Parry chance.
• Guard and Shield effects will always apply Block for Paladin and Parry for all others.

Phalanx, then, would generate rapidly and continuously fading Guard from spell damage inflicted. CaC would then convert this to Shield, which would not begin to fade until 3 seconds after your last physical attack, while Displacement would then convert lingering shield back to Guard and extra deal damage based on the amount converted.
So, you're a relatively sturdy (albeit pet-less and low-CD-throughput) caster, with guaranteed mitigation on melee approach that can be converted to damage when not consumed by would-be physical damage taken. That seemed relatively RDM-iconic to me.

[Mansion]

I am curious about the thought process behind calling it a DoT "for the sake of having one". As I explained it seems a likely course of action should they seek to add more potency to the rotation in the future as an alternative to "Jolt III", aside from just buffing every spell with one Trait, especially with how DoTs can function as easy damage-tuning knobs.

As long as a DoT has nothing tied to it except for ticking, I'm not into it. As Shurrikhan said it quite nicely. And when you think about it, there's only Bard, Summoner and perhaps Black MAge that have an interactive and engaging DoT system.
As we discussed, if we had a RDM DoT that would tick aspected Mana, it could work. Also to remember, DoT kind of replace Auto-Attack for casters, which means RDM really has nothing else outside of its spells.

Something I was thinking about last night (which may be a bit of a moot point now, but still):

Let's say the devs removed Engagement and the potency from Displacement, and put them all in Corps-a-corps or the melee combo.

Why would we ever want to use Displacement? As it is now, the backstep isn't really worth much, since the escape mechanism is only of use in niche situations. Unlike melee, there's no penalty to casters for being close to the target (aside from the increased risk of death in some instances), and the fact that we can attack from range is considered a reward in itself despite lack of incentive to really do so.

I'm going to have to disagree there, sorry haha. Corps à Corps and Displacement are actually powerful movement tools outside of being DPS abilities. The most recent example in my mind is Seiryu, you can cheese the wave pushes with corps à corps, Backflip out of ground AoEs, cross one half of the area that is about to be truck by the big Shiki in a second; all of that without losing any DPS uptime.
And it does not mean you hold these abilities because they come back quite quickly, and some fights (ainly Savage) require you to move a lot. For me it's comparable (in different proportions) to BLM movement tools, you need to study each fight to make the best of Corps à Corps and Displacement. I really enjoyed that on certain fights, so the "dumbing down" of Engagement is a bit useless for me, because I will still look for better ways of using Displacement.
As I already said, apart from Fire phase in Chaos, I can't think of a fight where you simply cannot use Displacement or wait a few seconds before using it, rather than losing potency and using Engagement. (basically, if you can do it on Suzaku, you can do it everywhere)

[Archwizard]

These would in some cases, or points in macrorotation, be situationally inferior (as they're compensating for mobility, a bit more decisive utility in some cases, and more immediate damage), but would nonetheless remain options, leading up until Enspell as a means to spend the B/W Mana generated. In that way, Displacement remains significant just for easily moving in and out of range, since your distance would actually... matter.

I thought about something like that, but part of the concern I had was that if you're ever in the kind of closed-quarters situation where you can't Displace safely (or where Displacement just doesn't send you anywhere), you're forced into using your melee spender abilities until it's safe for you to make room. Not the ideal; same reason I'm fine with holding off on not making it any more "punishing" for ranged to be in melee, either.

Also to remember, DoT kind of replace Auto-Attack for casters, which means RDM really has nothing else outside of its spells.

My autoattacks as RDM hit for 2 digits.

I think it's a safe loss.

I'm going to have to disagree there, sorry haha. Corps à Corps and Displacement are actually powerful movement tools outside of being DPS abilities. The most recent example in my mind is Seiryu, you can cheese the wave pushes with corps à corps, Backflip out of ground AoEs, cross one half of the area that is about to be truck by the big Shiki in a second; all of that without losing any DPS uptime.

Right, and as I also said: "the escape mechanism is only of use in niche situations".

I'd love for them to be primarily movement tools, but the fact is they're both movement tools and oGCD damage tools -- that's why we got Engagement and a stronger Displacement.

[Seraphor]

Something I was thinking about last night (which may be a bit of a moot point now, but still):

Let's say the devs removed Engagement and the potency from Displacement, and put them all in Corps-a-corps or the melee combo.

Why would we ever want to use Displacement? ... [snip]

Displacement should be used for movement only.
Once you tie anything useful to it, like damage... then it becomes a necessary part of the rotation, and a rotation that can kill you is a bad rotation.
But damage can be sacrificed. MP regen may not, especially if you're dangerously low from verraise.

It can be incredibly useful in some fights where you need to make distance, like say Midgardsormr where you need to dodge his radial AoE. But then fights like Omega, where you instantly die if you go outside of the circle, make it useless.

[Seraphor]

My autoattacks as RDM hit for 2 digits.

I think it's a safe loss.

That's because caster autoattacks are based on STR.
So are melee autoattacks, so melee autoattacks are a significant portion of their dps, and that's why casters have DoTs to compensate.

But yeah, a mechanic tied to black/white mana would have been cool.

Something like:
Verwater/blizzard, a DoT that increases white/black mana by 3 for each tick for 24s. Shares a recast timer with Verblizzard/water. 45s cooldown.
This could be used to force an imbalance, and to maintain mana regen during downtime from mechanic dodging.