Why was Living Dead not removed?

[WhyAmIHere]

Yeah I forgot about it short cool down. That was totally my bad. Now what would you rate them all if they all had a 2 min CD? ((Yes I know Holmgang has a 3 min cool down.)) I just want to know what people would rate them if they all got a buff to 2 min cooldown.

Hypothetically if all invulns shared a 2min recast?
Hallowed->SBolide->Holm->LD.

[MrThinker]

Yeah I forgot about it short cool down. That was totally my bad. Now what would you rate them all if they all had a 2 min CD? ((Yes I know Holmgang has a 3 min cool down.)) I just want to know what people would rate them if they all got a buff to 2 min cooldown.

Well, in that case, ofc Hallowed Ground would be OP. There might be a bit of toss up between Holmgang and Superbolide, I personally think Superbolide would edge out Holmgang since it is just a lesser Hallowed Ground, but Living Dead would still be the worst, simply because of 'heal or die'.

Now if they were to actually put all on the invulns on the same CD.... they would need to put them all on the same level, which just then gets rid of job identity imo.

[Otorinth]

That is an interesting idea, however I fear it could potentially leave you in a vulnerable spot.
Let's take the most common situation in which an invulnerable ability is used. A big buster is about to come which would normally kill you so you pop LD which reduces you to 0 hp and triggers Walking Dead. Then after that there tends to be a bit of a lull in incoming damage with mainly just fluff damage from a few autos, meaning that you regain little hp from the proposed Walking Dead effect. Then when the effect wears off a healer has to quickly react and heal you up or what little hp buffer you have could quickly get chewed through and you die.

I understand what you were going for but the part about not being able to be healed by others in Walking Dead, DRK's lack of proper burst healing and the likeliness of taking negligible damage leaves the proposed changes still problematic, far more complicated and at a discernible disadvantage compared to the other invulnerable abilities.

All in all, I really feel that we should shed this idea that DRK's invulnerability ability has to have some odd penalizing complication for the sake of "job identity". Individual flavour can be achieved without resorting to such.

Autos in Savage/Ultimate raids can hit between 9,000-17,000. A few of those over a 10 second period can equal out to a mighty amount of healing when the effect ends.This also extends to packs of mobs.

The greatest vulnerability would come from eating a buster that activates Walking Dead, and having the boss IMMEDIATELY going into un-targetable super attack that takes JUST LONG ENOUGH to charge and release,so that it causes your WD to fall off before the hit can actually take place.

[Duskane]

Even Xenos mentioned to Yoshi how bad Living dead is

[WhyAmIHere]

Even Xenos mentioned to Yoshi how bad Living dead is

yeah, and yoshi gave him a non-answer of "well everyone compares the invulns to hallowed, and that's OP and if we adjusted that people'd get upset" if memory serves.

[TouchandFeel]

Autos in Savage/Ultimate raids can hit between 9,000-17,000. A few of those over a 10 second period can equal out to a mighty amount of healing when the effect ends.This also extends to packs of mobs.

The greatest vulnerability would come from eating a buster that activates Walking Dead, and having the boss IMMEDIATELY going into un-targetable super attack that takes JUST LONG ENOUGH to charge and release,so that it causes your WD to fall off before the hit can actually take place.

I don't disagree that it could work in some situations but it's the "could" and "some" that I find problematic, especially when the things that could determine success or failure may be out of the players' control. Hallowed doesn't have mechanics that complicate things like that, neither does Holmgang, not even the widely panned Superbolide. So then why does Living Dead have to have some odd caveat tacked on? Why do we keep putting these limitations and/or punishments into it when proposing changes or redesigns? Because the flawed version that we currently have has one so we decided that such is necessary for the ability to have "job identity"?

There are so many ways that Living Dead could have it's design changed to make it more straight forward, more simple and still make it feel unique.

[MrThinker]

yeah, and yoshi gave him a non-answer of "well everyone compares the invulns to hallowed, and that's OP and if we adjusted that people'd get upset" if memory serves.

No, that was in regards to Superbolide. His non-answer to Living Dead was because "Job Identity".

[Hierro]

This is speculation, but Yoshi's comments regarding the strength of invulnerabilities and the introduction of superbolide (with it's cooldown timer matching that of HG) gives us a bit of perspective. In their view, Holmgang and Hallowed are overpowered, and they would nerf them were it not for fear of backlash for keeping them unchanged for so long.

Superbolide then sets a new precedent. This is what the devs now consider in-line with balance. Something that's stronger than Holmgang but weaker than Hallowed Ground (as far as effect goes) is deserving a cooldown of 7 minutes. I can only imagine if devs had their way, they would increase holmgang and hallowed ground's cooldown.

However, this new standard also increases the value of the shorter invulerabilites. LD's 5 minute cooldown is now given more value because we now understand what value is given to cooldowns. In exchange for an invulnerability that requires more team interaction, we are given 4 more seconds of invincibility than holmgang, along with a 10 second prior buffer.

In short, LD may come with its issues, but it comes at a fair price as far as cooldown length and power is concerned.

[WhyAmIHere]

No, that was in regards to Superbolide. His non-answer to Living Dead was because "Job Identity".

the thing that's been eroded more and more with each expansion, simplifying more and more of the DRK's gameplay mechanics is somehow "in line" with their "job identity."

Yup. They have no idea wtf DRK is supposed to be.

[TouchandFeel]

In short, LD may come with its issues, but it comes at a fair price as far as cooldown length and power is concerned.

Except that it is not fair and balanced if a new standard has been established but only two out of four are then held to that standard. If this new standard is to be upheld then it would need to be enforced across the board which would mean that Holmgang and Hallowed would have to be nerfed pretty heavily, which contradicts precisely what you and many others have said should be the way that balance is achieved, by improving the thing that is lagging so that it is then comparable.

So which is it? Which direction do we push for changes, up or down? I for one would be much more accepting of Living Dead and Superbolide if Holmgang and Hollowed Ground were brought in line to their level, however I truly doubt there would be majority support for going in that direction.

Also if the devs want a new standard for how powerful the invulns should be but don't feel they could equally apply that standard, they should abandon it and just adjust to what the feel they can set it at, or potentially try to nudge it in the direction they wish to go by setting the new standard of power slightly lower than what Hallowed and Holmgang are at so that players will likely be more excepting. Establishing double standards to not piss off one subset of players just ends up pissing off all the others.

TLDR:
If a standard is to be fair it must be fairly applied.