Tank homogenization

[Jeeqbit]

On the face of it you might think there is homogenization.

But if you do, you didn't read the tooltips or understand the changes properly.

Jobs have never been more unique and different from eachother than they will be in 5.0.

- Homogenization of Provoke and Shirk is essential.

- All jobs have got a gap closer at this point; this homogenization isn't unique to tanks.

- Tanks have always had a functionally-identical pulling tool, but they all look different. Throwing a shield, reaching with your axe, throwing dark magic and shooting your gun. All feel different. You could even argue DPS jobs have an action of this nature too, like dragoon throwing their spear or ninja throwing their knife.

- The 10s 30% damage reduction is different on Warrior because it causes damage to enemies.

- Paladin's AOE is not 2 actions; it's a huge exciting rotation ... it's Requiescat -> Holy Circle x4 -> Confiteor -> FoF -> (Total Eclipse -> Prominance) spam.

- The AOE party support functions differently. WAR's is a barrier. PLD's is a barrier that is heal-activated so their activation time has to be different. DRK's is magic damage reduction. GNB's is general damage reduction. There is a difference between a barrier and damage reduction. They are all mechanically different.

- No other job has PLD's Cover. No other tank has PLD's clemency. No other tank has GNB's regen. No other job has WAR's Nascent Flash where a party member absorbs health from their attacks.

- The "Fell Cleave Copy" is unique to the tank's job identity though. For PLD it is casted spells. For DRK it is Bloodspiller. I assume GNB's involves shooting their gun but haven't studied it enough. They just all feel very different and fun to different people so it's nitpicking.

- Everyone's "I can't die" button is very different. PLD's identity is powerful mitigation with its shield and spirit, so it gets to be invincible and they haven't given other tanks one because it would take away from PLD's job identity. GNB's is weaker because it reduces them to 1 HP, but their combo heals them and applies a barrier to them and they can apply their regen, use a potion or some other strategy if the healer can't sort them out. DRK's is only useful if there is a powerful healer around full stop, unless the 10 seconds of Walking Dead is enough to finish off a boss. WAR's is more frequent, binds them to the enemy and is probably ideal for one enemy rather than a big pull like PLD's is, and if it gets them to 1 HP, they can use Equilibrium, Thrill of Battle or rely on a healer.

They all function very differently, are usable in different situations and present tanks with different problems to solve and different ways to solve them.

[Darkpaw]

On the face of it you might think there is homogenization.

But if you do, you didn't read the tooltips or understand the changes properly.

Jobs have never been more unique and different from eachother than they will be in 5.0.

- Homogenization of Provoke and Shirk is essential.

- All jobs have got a gap closer at this point; this homogenization isn't unique to tanks.

- Tanks have always had a functionally-identical pulling tool, but they all look different. Throwing a shield, reaching with your axe, throwing dark magic and shooting your gun. All feel different. You could even argue DPS jobs have an action of this nature too, like dragoon throwing their spear or ninja throwing their knife.

- The 10s 30% damage reduction is different on Warrior because it causes damage to enemies.

- Paladin's AOE is not 2 actions; it's a huge exciting rotation ... it's Requiescat -> Holy Circle x4 -> Confiteor -> FoF -> (Total Eclipse -> Prominance) spam.

- The AOE party support functions differently. WAR's is a barrier. PLD's is a barrier that is heal-activated so their activation time has to be different. DRK's is magic damage reduction. GNB's is general damage reduction. There is a difference between a barrier and damage reduction. They are all mechanically different.

- No other job has PLD's Cover. No other tank has PLD's clemency. No other tank has GNB's regen. No other job has WAR's Nascent Flash where a party member absorbs health from their attacks.

- The "Fell Cleave Copy" is unique to the tank's job identity though. For PLD it is casted spells. For DRK it is Bloodspiller. I assume GNB's involves shooting their gun but haven't studied it enough. They just all feel very different and fun to different people so it's nitpicking.

- Everyone's "I can't die" button is very different. PLD's identity is powerful mitigation with its shield and spirit, so it gets to be invincible and they haven't given other tanks one because it would take away from PLD's job identity. GNB's is weaker because it reduces them to 1 HP, but their combo heals them and applies a barrier to them and they can apply their regen, use a potion or some other strategy if the healer can't sort them out. DRK's is only useful if there is a powerful healer around full stop, unless the 10 seconds of Walking Dead is enough to finish off a boss. WAR's is more frequent, binds them to the enemy and is probably ideal for one enemy rather than a big pull like PLD's is, and if it gets them to 1 HP, they can use Equilibrium, Thrill of Battle or rely on a healer.

They all function very differently, are usable in different situations and present tanks with different problems to solve and different ways to solve them.

GNB's is their powder charge combo with the continuation skill.

[Reimmi]

Maybe its just me abandoning wow but i'd rather have a handful of similar feeling abilities between the tanks but still have alot of buttons to press rather than... the abomination that is wow tanking
I'm telling you the only time i ever fell asleep mid-raid was blood dk/guardian druid tanking in legion/bfa

[Sanctify]

Welcome to role communism :/ #feelsbad

[xvshanevx]

Gonna agree with darkpaw about this. I rather they do the role the same then expand on their Game play options.

I have literally given up on the game after this comment. I have never heard anything more fucking stupid in my life.

[Sylvain]

This is complain for the sake of complaining.
There are tools. Every job within said role must have, especially tanks and heal.
All tank must be able to survive the same set of TB otherwise you could end up with content where some tanks simply couldn't clear due to them lacking CD. (a good example is Paladin sentinel, you're paying 60 extra sec for that 10% extra mitigation which is useless (since all of it weren't useless Tha. Other tank couldn't survive). This leads PLD have CD issue other tanks, especially war sont have.

Same goes for taunt shirk and all those other tools. They all have it because they need it. This is also why they aren't job skill but role skills.

Regarding other things like their burst windows. First they do feel totally different to play, second during SB DRK suffered from having no burst windows. Being able to align your most potent spell with other players buff is an important part of this game.

Tanks are fine and you're just trying to find an issue for the sake of it.

[Sylve]

I have literally given up on the game after this comment. I have never heard anything more fucking stupid in my life.

His comment makes perfect sense. All Tanks should have the same kit in function, with their general gameplay being their identity.

WoW used to have different classes have wildly different role kits. Do you know how long Resto Druids had to play without a standard Raise spell? Too long is the answer. Paladins couldn't even taunt for a long while. Bosses like Illidan were nearly functionally impossible for any Tank but a Warrior because of Shear and how Crushing Blows worked at the time.

It just isn't feasible from a design perspective to have multiple jobs with the same role missing important tools for the sake of not wanting them to "feel the same as each other". All it does is make people choose which one has the best tools for a particular fight and exclude the others. An example of that is again Black Temple in WoW. I was a maintank Warrior for that with a Paladin co tank. On trash fights, I was useless. On boss fights he was useless. (Except council fight, where I had the dubious honor of booping the rogue) Because the design at the time was that the Tanks (and Healers) couldn't have similar tools out of fear of identity loss.

I am incredibly glad that SE decided to go the route of ensuring every tank had the same tools but still managed to play entirely different to each other.

[Big-Isaac]

His comment makes perfect sense. All Tanks should have the same kit in function, with their general gameplay being their identity.

That's not entirely true at all. For the tanking role, you need 3 things
- taunt. Kinda need some form of that for tank swaps. Technically don't NEED need a taunt button, but for the sake of not making the role a fiddly, micro-manage-y nightmare, it's necessary
- some way to deal with in-coming damage
- some way to keep the mobs from hitting who they're not supposed to be hitting
And that's it. Optionally, you can also add party support to the list.

In absolutely no way is it required for every tank to have the same 2 defensive CDs and all the other stuff I listed in the OP. As long as every tank has tools to accomplish the above things, you're good to go. Having all tanks accomplish these things in the same exact way, however, is what I call unnecessary homogenization.

What this homogenization does is rob you of moments of glory, where you are able to use your job's unique traits to accomplish something the other jobs wouldn't be capable of.

WoW used to have different classes have wildly different role kits. Do you know how long Resto Druids had to play without a standard Raise spell? Too long is the answer. Paladins couldn't even taunt for a long while. Bosses like Illidan were nearly functionally impossible for any Tank but a Warrior because of Shear and how Crushing Blows worked at the time.

Referring to the eras of WoW before its class design got good isn't fruitful. It's disingenuous, because you're referring to the most extreme possible scenario in an attempt to portray what I'm suggesting in a bad light, even though that extreme isn't remotely what i would like to see in FF14. Yeah, I don't want certain tanks to be completely worthless in certain situations, nor do I want BLM's entire rotation to consist of nothing but Fireball. WoW has long since moved on from that nonsense, but tanks are still allowed to have certain niches they excel at, which is what leads to said moments of glory

This is complain for the sake of complaining.

Never did I suggest that what I'm talking about is a massive deal breaker that needs to be fixed ASAP.
What it is is a waste of opportunity

[Kaedan]

Wow, this "homogenization" fad word BS needs to stop soon. People using and abusing the term so badly.

Just because tanks were given a basic kit of a handful of skills that are needed for tanking does not mean they were "heavily homogenized". That's crap. Even the skllls that ARE similar to one another aren't the same. Most of them have at least slight differences.

And the list you give in the OP is just one big reduction to absurdity fallacy.

[Sylve]

That's not entirely true at all. For the tanking role, you need 3 things
- taunt. Kinda need some form of that for tank swaps. Technically don't NEED need a taunt button, but for the sake of not making the role a fiddly, micro-manage-y nightmare, it's necessary
- some way to deal with in-coming damage
- some way to keep the mobs from hitting who they're not supposed to be hitting

You just agreed with me, good job.
They gave all the tanks the tools to deal with those specific situations and then built a gameplay suite unique to each job to differentiate them in play.

And to throw your WoW comment back at you, mechanics like Stagger for Brewmasters exist to "make up" for the fact that they don't have a Shield. Death Knight bubbles on DS, Druid absorbs etc, all of those mechanics exist for the sake of giving all the Tanks the exact same effect: That of the shield block. Irony here being that during Burning Crusade was the last time the Tanks were unique compared to each other.

All of the self healing from tanks exist because Death Knights have it, so all the other Tanks have to have big self healing capacity.
Really, your use of WoW as an example of Tank uniqueness was not all that great, considering the lengths Blizzard have gone to make sure all of them have the same tools.

Being unique for the sake of being unique doesn't lead to 'glory moments', it just leads to getting replaced by the class that has the tool you lack for the fight. I used that era of WoW to demonstrate it happening.
Hell, we have an example of just that in XIV already. Pre Tank invuln Holmgang. Paladins could cheese certain mechanics with Hallowed Ground, Warriors couldn't. Warriors got benched.