Redesigning fire 1

[Zerathor]

I think we're missing the real point here that needs looked into. It clearly says it removes umbral ice, yet can only be cast while in astral fire.... It clearly means we're getting a new hybrid stance of Earthly Water for when you figure out how to make them stack... they thought they could just sneak that by us

[Kabooa]

Flare already (and has since 2.0) listed your current MP as its cost, unless your MP is lower than the cost of Fire I, in which case it lists the cost of Fire I and you can't cast it. This being the case, if ShB maintains the current cost design, it would replace the last Fire IV (Fire, Flare, and Fire IV have the same base cost).

1200 / 15480 = .077, or about 8% MP.

This means Despair will likely also require a minmum of 8% MP. Which is 800mp. The tag on the toolbox says 'All' while the 'minimum' needed to cast is shown if you do not have the required MP.

Edit: It's easy to forget that Fire's base cost is 1200 at level 70, because we never cast Fire from a neutral point anymore. That is my mistake.

But!

This is still valuable information so the post will remain.

In regards to Shadowbringers, this means we end our 10,000 MP phase with 1200 MP (3xF4 UH = 2400, 1600 F1, 3x F4, 4800). Despair -should- cost the same as flare, therefore being a minimum cost of 800.

Thunder cost 400 MP, meaning so long as we max out our MP , the spell order does not matter. We will enter with a minmum of 9600 and spend down to 800.

Our Rotation -should- be 3/1/3/Despair

Our Mana Font / Leyline window should be 3/1/3/Despair/ 1 / Depsair

[Rongway]

The tag on the toolbox says 'All' while the 'minimum' needed to cast is shown if you do not have the required MP.

It's bizarre that our clients say different things! Mine has said the numeric cost on the Flare tooltip as long as I can remember.

[Kabooa]

It's bizarre that our clients say different things! Mine has said the numeric cost on the Flare tooltip as long as I can remember.

It uses your current mp. As you said, once you move below maximum, you see the absolute minimum amount of MP you need to cast it.

[Kabooa]

Oh hot diggity I just noticed in the Despair screenshot it's a base casting time of 1.5

THIS IS FANTASTIC.

Please note that this following nerd blurb assumes no potency changes to our base spells, but even if our potency is -lowered- moving forward, the assumptions keep the new spells being the same and works out more in our favor.

Allow me to explain. I had almost posted a thread about alternative rotations to the standard 3/1/3/Despair that seems obvious, but decided against it, since I was working on the 2.0 second cast time assumption. Research is for suckers.

Get this.

3/1/3/Despair for AF + B3 B4 Thunder Xenoglossy F3 UI is [16.8 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.8 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5] = 34.6 seconds long.
The total potency is 5,564
Total potency / second is about 160.8

But this ignores the actual most significant changes to Black Mage. +2 seconds on AF, and Despair refreshes AF. What does this mean? It means F1 could potentially be dropped.

Entering AF from UI with F3 is about .75 seconds of downtime, meaning of the 15 seconds we have, we start casting at 14.25. At base spellspeed, this is 5 Fire 4s before we drop AF. This is bad. But! With 10% spellspeed, this is instead 12.5 seconds. 1.75 seconds left. When I was working under the assumption of Despair being 2.0 seconds this didn't fly, even with 10% spell speed. But it's not. It's -1.5- base.

Enter the new possibility. The 5/Despair AF phase.

5/Despair AF + B3 Thunder Xenoglossy (when available) F3 UI.
The time the rotation takes at 10% spellspeed is (12.5 + 2.25 + 2.25 + 2.25 + 2.25) or 21.5 seconds, not counting xenoglossy.
The potency for this 'short' rotation is 4,014

With Xenoglossy, it's 24 seconds and 4,764 potency.

The potency/second of xenoless is 186
The potency / second of xenofull is 198.5

The average potency of the 'short' rotation is 186 + 2[198.5] = 194.33

The short rotation requires 8800 MP (5 F4 x 1600 + despair minimum-cost 800) or we can assume two ticks in UI. For two of the rotations this doesn't matter, as Xenoglossy will be available for use. On Xenoless, the MP tick can dump the potency / second a small margin, -but- this can be alleviated when you consider that Sharp Cast is 60 seconds, and our Opener / Leyline rotations will cover any empty windows.

TL/DR

COME AND WALK THE PATH OF EXPLOSIONS WITH ME!

[Djinnrb]

I came to the forums to propose something like this... I think Fire 1 should just be named Fire and get stronger as you level. Fire 3 should be named something else and when Fire 3 procs I think you should be able to cast it while you are casting another spell. I think all procs on BLM should be castable while casting other spells and not trigger a GCD. I can not get over the rough playstyle of BLM when I am casting Fire 1 for a second time because i'm spamming the button and its already casting before the Fire 3 proc shows up from the first Fire 1. Then I have to stop casting by moving or ESC and cast the Fire 3 proc.

I would like to just keep spamming Fire 1 (or Fire 4) and be able to hit Fire 3 at the same time without being interrupted. I also think Fire 4 should also be able to proc Fire 3 just like Fire 1 does and gets an extra 40% chance when using a Heart to cast Fire 4. This would allow a smoother Fire 4 spamming gameplay while being able to refresh Umbral Fire without trying to weave in a Fire 1.

[Rongway]

when I am casting Fire 1 for a second time because i'm spamming the button and its already casting before the Fire 3 proc shows up from the first Fire 1. Then I have to stop casting by moving or ESC and cast the Fire 3 proc.

Never interrupt Fire 1 just to use the Fire 3 proc.

Fire III is a damage loss over Fire I unless it is instant. The reason for this is that it does 33% more damage than Fire I but it has a 40% longer cast time. When it's instant, it does 33% more damage but takes only the same 2.5s GCD that Fire I takes.

Interrupting Fire I will cost you more than 1 second, which will negate the benefit of Firestarter. If you can't register the Firestarter proc fast enough to press the Fire III button instead, let your Fire I cast finish.

[Djinnrb]

Never interrupt Fire 1 just to use the Fire 3 proc.

Fire III is a damage loss over Fire I unless it is instant. The reason for this is that it does 33% more damage than Fire I but it has a 40% longer cast time. When it's instant, it does 33% more damage but takes only the same 2.5s GCD that Fire I takes.

Interrupting Fire I will cost you more than 1 second, which will negate the benefit of Firestarter. If you can't register the Firestarter proc fast enough to press the Fire III button instead, let your Fire I cast finish.

Thats exactly my point... I'm tired of it not being smooth gameplay. I dont want to waste my procs but im forced to lose DPS ether by stoping Fire 1 or losing a potential proc with another Fire 1. I should be able to just use it while casting.

[Rongway]

I dont want to waste my procs but im forced to lose DPS ether by stoping Fire 1

So don't.

or losing a potential proc with another Fire 1. I should be able to just use it while casting.

You can. The marching ants turn on before your Fire cast finishes, so if your reflexes are good you can press Fire III instead of Fire when it procs, without losing any time.

This isn't even a real problem, though. Content from 42 through 59 doesn't suffer horribly from an occasional overwritten Firestarter proc unless doing things at min iLv where every damage point matters; and even then, the point of doing things at min iLv is to test your skill. It's strictly a non-issue from 60 on because you won't cast Fire twice in a row unless you mess up, and then the problem isn't the proc system but that you messed up.

[Grimoire-M]

Oh hot diggity I just noticed in the Despair screenshot it's a base casting time of 1.5

THIS IS FANTASTIC.

Please note that this following nerd blurb assumes no potency changes to our base spells, but even if our potency is -lowered- moving forward, the assumptions keep the new spells being the same and works out more in our favor.

Allow me to explain. I had almost posted a thread about alternative rotations to the standard 3/1/3/Despair that seems obvious, but decided against it, since I was working on the 2.0 second cast time assumption. Research is for suckers.

Get this.

3/1/3/Despair for AF + B3 B4 Thunder Xenoglossy F3 UI is [16.8 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.8 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5] = 34.6 seconds long.
The total potency is 5,564
Total potency / second is about 160.8

But this ignores the actual most significant changes to Black Mage. +2 seconds on AF, and Despair refreshes AF. What does this mean? It means F1 could potentially be dropped.

Entering AF from UI with F3 is about .75 seconds of downtime, meaning of the 15 seconds we have, we start casting at 14.25. At base spellspeed, this is 5 Fire 4s before we drop AF. This is bad. But! With 10% spellspeed, this is instead 12.5 seconds. 1.75 seconds left. When I was working under the assumption of Despair being 2.0 seconds this didn't fly, even with 10% spell speed. But it's not. It's -1.5- base.

Enter the new possibility. The 5/Despair AF phase.

5/Despair AF + B3 Thunder Xenoglossy (when available) F3 UI.
The time the rotation takes at 10% spellspeed is (12.5 + 2.25 + 2.25 + 2.25 + 2.25) or 21.5 seconds, not counting xenoglossy.
The potency for this 'short' rotation is 4,014

With Xenoglossy, it's 24 seconds and 4,764 potency.

The potency/second of xenoless is 186
The potency / second of xenofull is 198.5

The average potency of the 'short' rotation is 186 + 2[198.5] = 194.33

The short rotation requires 8800 MP (5 F4 x 1600 + despair minimum-cost 800) or we can assume two ticks in UI. For two of the rotations this doesn't matter, as Xenoglossy will be available for use. On Xenoless, the MP tick can dump the potency / second a small margin, -but- this can be alleviated when you consider that Sharp Cast is 60 seconds, and our Opener / Leyline rotations will cover any empty windows.

TL/DR

COME AND WALK THE PATH OF EXPLOSIONS WITH ME!

So basically it's the ARR rotation but no Firestarter proc nonsense and way more potency. Nice.

I'm curious how the extended AF timer affects Thundercloud procs. You're able to squeeze one or two in cleanly in the F4x3 F1 F4x3 rotation but I wonder if that means you can potentially maintain perfect uptime with it by substituting Xenoglossy in UI where required.