New Healer Job Suggestion: Necromancer

[Archwizard]

Even on a 3m cooldown, that is definitely not a healer skill...

Aero III, Assize, Lord of Crowns, Earthly Star, Energy Siphon, Shadow Flare.
Nothing says a healer can't have extra damage skills in its pocket, particularly ones that add extra resources that can contribute to healing. The point of Death is to give the NCM a thematic CD to fill their Soul Gauge -- which is named because it is only filled by draining souls.

Besides, BLUs already have Doom. And Tail Screw, and Missile. Death's a classic Black Magic, not Blue.
If a BLM isn't getting a Death spell (and at the going rate it doesn't even have Burst yet), a NCM should.

Lore-logic-wise, I don't think I want to get "raised" by a Necromancer instead of a regular healer...

Also, on the passing comment that "scholar learning their skills from tonberries" sets a precedent for learning monstrous arts, it doesn't. Regardless of what they are in other games, in this game they are transformed humans, and the skills we learn from them originate in a human discipline from before the curse took hold. We're not learning "tonberry magic".

I like to think of it as grabbing the soul of a recent death as it rises out of the body before it passes into the Lifestream and forcefully shunting it back in, as opposed to just straight-up animating a rotting corpse.
I mean, if the entire skillset being developed here is based around channeling other souls anyway, it's a logical development.

And a Lich is a transformed human as well. I'm not saying we're learning "magic originally developed by the undead", particularly because logically the undead themselves are products of that magic.

[Shiro--Tsubasa]

Perhaps! But Vampire isn't really a class/job, and Necromancy would encompass the ability to turn/create a vampire.

I disagree, Vampire is seen as a type of class in many RPGs, I even know of a mmorpg that has one as a class. Heck one of the rpgs is even a Square IP even though the concept in that game is different than I proposed. (what I proposed is essentially a melee blood mage that uses drain type spells to deal damage in order to heal where as in that game they are essentially another BLU) It still stands though that it can be seen as a class. It can become a class unique to FF14 within the FF franchise.
Necromancy is tied within lore to a dps job iirc.

[Archwizard]

Necromancy is tied within lore to a dps job iirc.

I do not believe so.

The only "necromancers" within FF14 I'm aware of are Ascians as seen in the SMN storyline.

The only example we have of a Lich within FF14 is Nybeth Obdilord, who himself is from another world.

Ashkin are the product of any Voidsent activity, which can include Mhachi sorcery, but as we've seen with the Heavensward Alliance raids, the experiments of Mhach went beyond Black Magic. Even if the two had some tangential connection, it would be like saying Geomancy can't exist because White Mages already have control of the same elements, despite its physical presence in the world, or that Dancer shouldn't exist because Bards cover the entertainment-buffer archetype.

At any rate, and most importantly: Citing lore as a reason to block new game mechanics is the flimsiest possible excuse.
Lore can be changed -- and kinda has to as mechanics change. Back in 1.0, Thaumaturges were originally priests of Nald'thal, now they're fire-flinging mages with libraries on demonology.
Exceptions are written all the time. By lore, most of the jobs we have access to were long-dead arts we revived, and several are considered corruptive or taboo. Meanwhile we have no precedent in-story for jobs like Gunbreaker (especially since the version we're getting is completely unconnected to Garleans), much like we had none for Blue Mage, Red Mage, or Dark Knight before they were introduced.
New lore can be written to justify mechanics (adding in-universe fluff to why SMNs only have 3 Egis, when it comes out to "the devs couldn't balance more"), but to quote a friend of mine, "As long as White Mages aren't casting Meteor, the devs can find a way to do it."

[Shurrikhan]

Aero III, Assize, Lord of Crowns, Earthly Star, Energy Siphon, Shadow Flare.
Nothing says a healer can't have extra damage skills in its pocket, particularly ones that add extra resources that can contribute to healing. The point of Death is to give the NCM a thematic CD to fill their Soul Gauge -- which is named because it is only filled by draining souls.

Besides, BLUs already have Doom. And Tail Screw, and Missile. Death's a classic Black Magic, not Blue.
If a BLM isn't getting a Death spell (and at the going rate it doesn't even have Burst yet), a NCM should.

Sure, but... BLU isn't a job.

(Agreed on all other points, including the general idea.)

I like to think of it as grabbing the soul of a recent death as it rises out of the body before it passes into the Lifestream and forcefully shunting it back in, as opposed to just straight-up animating a rotting corpse.
I mean, if the entire skillset being developed here is based around channeling other souls anyway, it's a logical development.

In that case, wouldn't a term with slightly less macabre connotations work better?

I don't have a problem with either one personally, but it's been a weirdly frequent point of concern.

I mean... Necromancer.
Macabre is kinda the point.

I only mentioned it because your explanation of the process seemed far from macabre in itself (merely returning, albeit forcefully, a soul that would otherwise , while that has been a turn off for a few separate posters now.

You're right, though: if we limit it to a mononym, it's hard to think of another good fit. Return would be the most obvious, but... I fear for how many people would decline a return mid-fight, after having thought they just declined it (if in dungeons)...
Respirit? Inspirit? Animus? Souljoin? Soulfuse? Enfuse? (The latter three sound more like ways by which to buff a summoned revenant, but, hell, if not every Raise ability need be identical... that could actually be pretty cool...)

Hmm... is "Reunion" too loaded with connotations in FF? I mean, it is both a rejoining of body and soul, and of the fallen with their living allies.

Oof. I don't know. I like it, but I don't know how distracting other would find it. It feels more Thaumaturge (lit: miracle-maker) than Necromancer, though.

Repossession seems a really good fit, albeit a little more mundane. Explains the process exactly, fits NCM, and doesn't give off any obvious connotation of being raised from the... well- and pungently dead.

Before I came up with the NCM, I have toyed around before with the idea of giving BLM a necromancy-based raise that puts the target in an undead state, preventing weakness but also preventing them from receiving healing for a duration. I retooled that idea for the Undying skill here, of course.
But, if we unbalance the Raise skills too much then it could lead to one job or other being preferred for it -- just look at RDM. That being said, I did include a trait for NCM to raise just a teensy bit easier, at a higher cost to themselves.

It's a pretty lucrative, albeit daunting, area of discussion, imo. When we first heard that we were getting Astrologian but had as of yet only gotten the skill names, some tooltips, and the flavor text about Theoretical Bodies/Masses for Combust, I was actually hoping Ascendance would provide a different take on Raise, with Raise itself and Resurrection changing slightly to match. I had no idea what they'd do with it, perhaps infusing the person with energy from one of the theoretical masses via Diurnal Sect (+AB) or Combust or even the cards or... heck, Stella or Gravity, but I wanted to see something new that wouldn't make it simply "whoever refreshes Swiftcast first".

I wouldn't mind if, rhythmically, one job was better suited to raise an ally at one moment and then the other was some 30 seconds later, just by the nature of their native kits. You can have intentional rhythmic imbalances to be paced between healers rather than just a flat ever-present "this healer is better at X". That pacing already appears in Swiftcast itself to some extent, and I'd rather see that kind of variation be visible within native kits, rather than solely through a Role Action.

Of course, I'm probably in the minority here. It seems there are plenty of others who'd rather scrap what kit diversity remains in favor of homogenized "(direct) balance"...

[Archwizard]

In that case, wouldn't a term with slightly less macabre connotations work better?

I mean... Necromancer.
Macabre is kinda the point.

If I could come up with a better undeath-themed mononym that wasn't "Raise" or "Resurrect", I'd use that.
"Return" is already taken. I suppose "Rebirth" could work, but feels weird to use if it doesn't involve some kind of change to the player.

[Archwizard]

while that has been a turn off for a few separate posters now.

True enough, though I expect many of these same posters would have argued for a Time Mage as a high-utility DPS rather than the Astrologian Healer we received.
After all, Time Mage has no precedent for healing -- but under the same argument, their powers have a high potential for it and their playstyle is better suited to support.

You're right, though: if we limit it to a mononym, it's hard to think of another good fit. Return would be the most obvious, but... I fear for how many people would decline a return mid-fight, after having thought they just declined it (if in dungeons)...
Respirit? Inspirit? Animus?

... And Return's also literally the spell we use to warp to our spawn point.

Hmm... is "Reunion" too loaded with connotations in FF? I mean, it is both a rejoining of body and soul, and of the fallen with their living allies.
On the one-hand the word isn't being used in the same context as FF7, on the other hand the devs do love their throwbacks...

The only other one I can think of is Repossession (both "possess" as in a spirit occupying a body and "repossess" in taking back from the Lifestream), though that's a mouthful, and a lot of characters to macro (and what healer doesn't Swiftcast-macro their rez).

Souljoin? Soulfuse? Enfuse? (The latter three sound more like ways by which to buff a summoned revenant, but, hell, if not every Raise ability need be identical... that could actually be pretty cool...)

I'm torn on this. On the one-hand, I see the most appropriate design for a Necromancer as a job that summons pets, whittles enemies down with curses and plagues, but otherwise focuses on supporting their allies and minions.
On the other, I'm a little worried about having applicable buffs to the Revenant, partly 'cuz I like the idea of the NCM being more hands-off with their summons than a SMN. More importantly though, half the point of the NCM is that their summons are disposable and routinely sacrificed, so spending extra time between summonings buffing them back up would be like raising someone who keeps dying and stopping to Protect them every time -- helpful, but annoying and time-consuming.

Before I came up with the NCM, I have toyed around before with the idea of giving BLM a necromancy-based raise that puts the target in an undead state, preventing weakness but also preventing them from receiving healing for a duration. I retooled that idea for the Undying skill here, of course.
But, if we unbalance the Raise skills too much then it could lead to one job or other being preferred for it -- just look at RDM. That being said, I did include a trait for NCM to raise just a teensy bit easier, at a higher cost to themselves.

[Archwizard]

Oof. I don't know. I like it, but I don't know how distracting other would find it. It feels more Thaumaturge (lit: miracle-maker) than Necromancer, though.

Repossession seems a really good fit, albeit a little more mundane. Explains the process exactly, fits NCM, and doesn't give off any obvious connotation of being raised from the... well- and pungently dead.

Like I said, I still imagine NCM and GEO as offshoots of THM and CNJ, respectively. It won't happen but a man can dream. I'll go with Repossession for now (... though maybe I should drop it to "Repossess"... but "Resurrection"... damn my obsessive need to make things match).

I might consider moving that list I've been writing to the OP, since it's fairly buried now.

It's a pretty lucrative, albeit daunting, area of discussion, imo. When we first heard that we were getting Astrologian but had as of yet only gotten the skill names, some tooltips, and the flavor text about Theoretical Bodies/Masses for Combust, I was actually hoping Ascendance would provide a different take on Raise, with Raise itself and Resurrection changing slightly to match. I had no idea what they'd do with it, perhaps infusing the person with energy from one of the theoretical masses via Diurnal Sect (+AB) or Combust or even the cards or... heck, Stella or Gravity, but I wanted to see something new that wouldn't make it simply "whoever refreshes Swiftcast first".

I wouldn't mind if, rhythmically, one job was better suited to raise an ally at one moment and then the other was some 30 seconds later, just by the nature of their native kits. You can have intentional rhythmic imbalances to be paced between healers rather than just a flat ever-present "this healer is better at X". That pacing already appears in Swiftcast itself to some extent, and I'd rather see that kind of variation be visible within native kits, rather than solely through a Role Action.

There's something to be said about 'homogeny' however. Under the current system, a rez is a rez is a rez, you don't really care who cast it or how you got it, just that you can get on your feet; because of this, we can have skill combinations like Thin Air/Light Speed + Swiftcast Rez to save the healer tons of MP (hence why I'm not concerned with the necromancer being able to reduce MP costs or cast times specifically on their rez, on a cooldown) or let RDM machine-gun multiple instant rezzes in a row. It's the rare utility with no use or benefit for the casters themselves, so with each being essentially the same, it can't really be gamed more than any other heal.

But in a system where, say, you save MP and cast time on your un-life insurance by switching to Necro VS Astro returning you with more health and MP VS Scholar giving you an extended immunity phase VS White Mage Raises having a lower Weakness timer?
Then the entire resurrection game changes -- nobody cares whether you saved MP 'cuz that doesn't affect them and ideally you won't be using it often enough to justify not having Swiftcast, but DPS will beg for WHMs to rez them so their performance is better faster, Tanks for SCH so they can get last longer, Casters and other Healers for AST so they get back in the game sooner.
Suddenly people have preferences for who rezzes them, which leads to performance dips as people stop to check what they're in for or decline casts or ask why soandso couldn't rez them instead, which leads to raid stacking to ensure the best results, which leads to community outcry, which leads to balance discussions from the devs to make sure raid performance is unaffected and job distribution is adequate. Bear in mind that RDM is already getting its damage tuned around the utility it brings by chaining Verraises, it costs a quarter of their MP with only LD to bring it back, and this is all assuming it keeps the most basic version.

It's a slippery slope.

(Also oof @ me double-posting twice in a row, I'm honestly lucky to have seen you replied at all with you editing more in.)

[Shurrikhan]

There's something to be said about 'homogeny' however. Under the current system, a rez is a rez is a rez, you don't really care who cast it or how you got it, just that you can get on your feet; because of this, we can have skill combinations like Thin Air/Light Speed + Swiftcast Rez to save the healer tons of MP (hence why I'm not concerned with the necromancer being able to reduce MP costs or cast times specifically on their rez, on a cooldown) or let RDM machine-gun multiple instant rezzes in a row. It's the rare utility with no use or benefit for the casters themselves, so with each being essentially the same, it can't really be gamed.

<snip>

It's a slippery slope.

That's of course a fair point, but I just want you to imagine something further:

Aas you've pointed out, homogeny does already give us distinct imbalances, not in the effect, but in the means of resurrection. A White Mage can perform two Raise casts at no MP cost. A Red Mage can Verraise within scarcely more than a GCD, at two GCD's cost, down from over 3. The first owes this to Swiftcast, the second to Verraise.

But, what if there were no Role Actions, including Swiftcast? If there's a necessary capacity that every job in a given Role must have, they have it, but uniquely, through their own kits. Could healers' resurrection spells feel more unique in their interactions and means of providing that homogeneous effect if we had more interactions available than just... which one can most exploit Swiftcast and forgo the MP cost?

Perhaps Conjurer interacts with Raise through new, Elemental resources, typically allowing for chain-casting or flow-casting or whatever on its heals via Water or allowing casts to be clipped for movement without failing (so, quick-casting) via Wind or strengthening a returned revision of Stoneskin via Earth. They can charge-cast Raise, with Water (and Holy) resources being optionally consumed during the cast to accelerate it and improve the HP that person Resurrects with (less an advantage to the target than to the healers themselves) while perhaps Earth could grant a fading damage shield or additional resistance (same idea; the target itself won't care) and Wind would allow the cast to be clipped short with the remaining charge being added, up to the cap from Wind currently available.
Astrologian can bind the target to an Astral Form via Combust, Aspected Benefic, or instantly via Celestial Opposition, granting minor HP and stats through which the ally can continue fighting while continuously reducing the time required to resurrect them.
Scholar fairy spells now similarly cost MP, but you can have your fairy Echo-cast your spells, picking up where you leave off, or just have them straight up long-cast the Resurrection for you.

So, if the Astro can afford to sacrifice some of its resources in play (up greatest cost), it can quicken any given resurrection spell while offering continued damage to the damage dealer. If the White Mage can afford to sacrifice some of its resources built up (up to second greatest cost), it can more quickly resurrect them and ensure they're more likely to survive said resurrection. If neither, the Scholar handles it. By which I mean Lily, so long as you can afford not to have her casting just then.

That doesn't really affect the targets in any noticeable way (especially if the target's Astral Form's damage is attributed to the Astrologian), but does allow for distinct interactions and considerations. Is that necessarily better than just leaving WHM with the best rez synergy (so long as Thin Air is up)? Not sure. Just food for thought.

I'm in no hurry to see distinct effects of resurrection (though, if they seem like they could be balanced, even if that'd require changes to general idea of XIV's rez, I'd certainly consider them), but I think different means of making the effect occur could be interesting and helpful.

[Archwizard]

-snip-

Under the current system I could see a change like, putting Raise on a role action and giving each job a unique cooldown as an alternative to facilitate what you just discussed.

But a system with no role actions, where each job has their own variations to fulfill the same roles. No "Ascend", but a starry golem with someone's consciousness that acts as an intermediary until they're fully rezzed. No "Resurrection", but a Raise the Fairy must cast. Raise frontloading some extra healing based on the resources poured into it. Hmm.
It does remind me somewhat of some of the after-death skills implemented in WoW: a priest could briefly resurrect as an angel with stronger heals, and early on one class had the ability to temporarily resurrect themselves or others as zombies with unique (albeit weak) attack skills.

I will admit I have thought that some jobs should have slightly better versions of those role actions -- even when it was "taken" from them, SCH retains the ability to influence Eye for an Eye with Deployment Tactics, for instance. That philosophy is what prompted me to write the Pestilence trait, a small thematic benefit to the job but not consistent or potent enough to relegate it into any position as a dispeller; I could similarly see effects for WHM or AST (slightly lower cooldowns, slightly more potent effects when activated, etc), albeit less specifically.

Lots of food for thought, though I think that requires its own discussion thread.

[Shurrikhan]

I will admit I have thought that some jobs should have slightly better versions of those role actions -- even when it was "taken" from them, SCH retains the ability to influence Eye for an Eye with Deployment Tactics, for instance. That philosophy is what prompted me to write the Pestilence trait, a small thematic benefit to the job but not consistent or potent enough to relegate it into any position as a dispeller; I could similarly see effects for WHM or AST (slightly lower cooldowns, slightly more potent effects when activated, etc), albeit less specifically.

I like such synergies with the original skill-bearer where they exist -- I just rarely feel like they're enough... or they're given to the wrong job. Given that only the tank can typically benefit from E4E (as only they can be hit to even have a chance to debuff enemies), for instance, I feel like the synergy with Astrologian via CO and TD is significant, while Deployment does literally nothing for it.

As you've suggested though, I'll attempt a mock-up of having replaced every single Role Action--returning each capacity to native toolkits (each in unique ways)--to be posted separately.

Quick, hopefully final, tangent:

Cleanses were actually the first reason I'd thought of diversifying former Role Actions, a few weeks back, and my samples included the same capacity as your Pestilence trait. I'd originally given it to Scholars; using Leeches stores the debuff (unless something as powerful as, say, Doom) in your Aetherpool, upgrading one's next Energy Drain to Drain Spike - <Debuff>, which then applies it to the enemy it strikes, retaining the debuff in Aetherpool if the enemy resists the effect. Conjurer, in turn, had all the benefits of their Cleanse (Esuna) being a Water spell and thus afford and use chain-casting through that element's benefits (keep in mind these are also sourced by and affect Fluid Aura, Assize, and Asylum), while Astrologian's Exalted Detriment would replace the debuff with its opposite buff for up to 75% of the debuff's remaining time at cleanse (plus a second or two extra).