New Healer Job Suggestion: Necromancer

[Archwizard]

*Obligatory "but we already had this (kind of, sort of, maybe) in the original Thaumaturge!" comment*

Ah, so you're saying there's precedent. Marvelous.

I mean... unpopular opinion, but I still would have liked to see all the job branches once intended from each job, a la Summoner and Scholar from Arcanist. Not that I consider the system entirely practical of course, just, something of interest.

I could see Necromancer as a branch of Thaumaturge and Geomancer from Conjurer, particularly given the Geomancers seen in the 60-70 AST questline and Swallow's Compass.

Yes, I know it was scrapped with good reason, but it doesn't hurt to dream.

To me, Necromancer feels like it ought to be a utility caster, whose resource for damage dealt just happens to be rather good for "death-eating" and "reanimating" (or, in practical terms -- healing). I just... cannot envision it as a full-fledged healer.
So I guess I'm stuck at the "Would love it... once hybrids can actually be a thing, content is decently varied, the game feels a bit more like an RPG, and job identity truly means something" stage again...

To which I would rebut that all of the healers we presently have are already effectively DPS hybrids, particularly (albeit not limited to) Scholar.

Thing is, if Necromancer was delivered as a straight DPS class with high utility, we're looking at what is effectively Summoner Redux -- which I would imagine is quite the pill to swallow in itself given the polarized views on the Egi/Demi-Primal system.

Literally: Rise again/against.

You sure had to do some digging for that.

You're right in that the etymology is thus: Middle English: from Old French, from late Latin resurrectio(n- ), from the verb resurgere ‘rise again’ (see resurgent).

On the other hand, the definition of "resurrect" is almost universally "to restore life to or revive as a practice", with immediate connection to religious and mythological raising of the dead. Synonyms include reanimation, rebirth and anastasis.

At any rate, I'm not entirely sure why this fact is being argued given that I highly doubt any type of allied necromancer would be raising their fallen comrades as zombie minions.

Necromancer could have an aesthetic similar to Edda and Scathach, use a scythe or a lantern (tomberry style).

I was thinking scythes or ritual knives/athame. The latter gives more of a sense of sacrifice.

A lantern would be a bit too Tonberry for my tastes.

[Shurrikhan]

Ah, so you're saying there's precedent. Marvelous.

It was the life-death class, but more in the sense of Astral-Umbral magic (with a side of Poison and Blood -- there were many more damage types originally, even including, say, Sonic, if I recall correctly). It was originally based on the deities popular in Ul'duh, hence its being based in the temple -- balancing life and death, longevity and quality, etc. To be precise, it was more Oracle or Mystic than Necromancer, and very well placed in the XIV setting (where I worry, like many others here, than a straight-up Necromancer would not be).

You could Sacrifice personal HP to HoT allies (a it like your Affliction->Healer_Via_Excess style mentioned), you had pretty damn nifty nukes in the form of the surprisingly powerful baseline Banish and Scourge (atop Dia and Bio as DoTs), and a good bit of utility (including Dreadspikes and a couple other defensive/reactive spells). Overall it's a class I'm sad to have lost in that it felt particularly unique and well tailored to the setting, but I don't hugely miss the aesthetic itself.

I mean... unpopular opinion, but I still would have liked to see all the job branches once intended from each job, a la Summoner and Scholar from Arcanist. Not that I consider the system entirely practical of course, just, something of interest.

I could see Necromancer as a branch of Thaumaturge and Geomancer from Conjurer, particularly given the Geomancers seen in the 60-70 AST questline and Swallow's Compass.

About the same here, though I'd prefer using the different schools of magic alike to weapon proficiencies from which to craft one's own style of magic (just as I'd like jobs to be able to mix or master from weapon types to arrive at said jobs). Which is... even less practical. By far.

To which I would rebut that all of the healers we presently have are already effectively DPS hybrids, particularly (albeit not limited to) Scholar.

There's a pretty big difference between having a toolkit in which one's resources are dual-purpose and just having a disgustingly large amount of free time on one's hands. XIV healers generally have the latter.

Thing is, if Necromancer was delivered as a straight DPS class with high utility, we're looking at what is effectively Summoner Redux -- which I would imagine is quite the pill to swallow in itself given the polarized views on the Egi/Demi-Primal system.

I've not suggested it be a straight DPS job, utility-heavy or otherwise, but if it were and such were an issue, then how the heck are we okay with Red Mage? Or, for that matter, Ninja or Dragoon. Though melee, they're just as utility-heavy. And if that capacity -- utterly regardless of style, playflow, aesthetic, theme, vibe, or feel -- is all that a differentiates a class... we're already screwed. You can absolutely use mechanics and resources to effect great enough that Summoner and this Necromancer would feel distinct. Just as Summoner didn't have to about DoTs, neither must Necromancer feel much of anything like Summoner.

[Archwizard]

There's a pretty big difference between having a toolkit in which one's resources are dual-purpose and just having a disgustingly large amount of free time on one's hands. XIV healers generally have the latter.

True, but Stormblood in particular has put additional emphasis on expanding the healer's combat rotation -- Assize and Aero III, Earthly Star and Lord of Crowns, Chain Stratagem.
Even with just a lot of "free time", encounters are typically designed with the expectation that every job will be putting damage in.

I've not suggested it be a straight DPS job, utility-heavy or otherwise, but if it were and such were an issue, then how the heck are we okay with Red Mage? Or, for that matter, Ninja or Dragoon. Though melee, they're just as utility-heavy. And if that capacity -- utterly regardless of style, playflow, aesthetic, theme, vibe, or feel -- is all that a differentiates a class... we're already screwed. You can absolutely use mechanics and resources to effect great enough that Summoner and this Necromancer would feel distinct. Just as Summoner didn't have to about DoTs, neither must Necromancer feel much of anything like Summoner.

True, but true hybridization is unlikely to occur within XIV, particularly with each role being divvied out into "main" and "off" job variants. Realistically our options are between the DoM options: pure caster, and damage-healer.

Each of the jobs you were discussing primarily have more opportunities for unique damage effects than unique utilities (at least in the case of RDM, whose entire shtick is copying two other jobs, one of whom is a healer). Yet given that many applications of necromancy have to do with exactly the same "life-death balance" you were discussing, we're talking about Necromancer as a job that either would have more opportunities for utility than damage (without just spamming multiple summon skills), or would be seriously missing out on opportunities if it tried to emphasize damage.

[Shiro--Tsubasa]

Personally, I have always associated Necromancy as DPS and seeing some responses I'm not the only one.

I do think one theme that could be considered is a vampire job. blood magic that focuses around draining spells. It could be a job that deals damage to heal like many people want. Heck, even make it melee if you want to go that route as well. It would be similar to necromancer without the roots that it already has as a damage dealer.

tldr I think vampire would be better than necromancer for a dark healer theme without changing its core.

[Archwizard]

Personally, I have always associated Necromancy as DPS and seeing some responses I'm not the only one.

I do think one theme that could be considered is a vampire job. blood magic that focuses around draining spells. It could be a job that deals damage to heal like many people want. Heck, even make it melee if you want to go that route as well. It would be similar to necromancer without the roots that it already has as a damage dealer.

tldr I think vampire would be better than necromancer for a dark healer theme without changing its core.

Perhaps! But Vampire isn't really a class/job, and Necromancy would encompass the ability to turn/create a vampire.

[Shiro--Tsubasa]

Perhaps! But Vampire isn't really a class/job, and Necromancy would encompass the ability to turn/create a vampire.

I disagree, Vampire is seen as a type of class in many RPGs, I even know of a mmorpg that has one as a class. Heck one of the rpgs is even a Square IP even though the concept in that game is different than I proposed. (what I proposed is essentially a melee blood mage that uses drain type spells to deal damage in order to heal where as in that game they are essentially another BLU) It still stands though that it can be seen as a class. It can become a class unique to FF14 within the FF franchise.
Necromancy is tied within lore to a dps job iirc.

[Archwizard]

Necromancy is tied within lore to a dps job iirc.

I do not believe so.

The only "necromancers" within FF14 I'm aware of are Ascians as seen in the SMN storyline.

The only example we have of a Lich within FF14 is Nybeth Obdilord, who himself is from another world.

Ashkin are the product of any Voidsent activity, which can include Mhachi sorcery, but as we've seen with the Heavensward Alliance raids, the experiments of Mhach went beyond Black Magic. Even if the two had some tangential connection, it would be like saying Geomancy can't exist because White Mages already have control of the same elements, despite its physical presence in the world, or that Dancer shouldn't exist because Bards cover the entertainment-buffer archetype.

At any rate, and most importantly: Citing lore as a reason to block new game mechanics is the flimsiest possible excuse.
Lore can be changed -- and kinda has to as mechanics change. Back in 1.0, Thaumaturges were originally priests of Nald'thal, now they're fire-flinging mages with libraries on demonology.
Exceptions are written all the time. By lore, most of the jobs we have access to were long-dead arts we revived, and several are considered corruptive or taboo. Meanwhile we have no precedent in-story for jobs like Gunbreaker (especially since the version we're getting is completely unconnected to Garleans), much like we had none for Blue Mage, Red Mage, or Dark Knight before they were introduced.
New lore can be written to justify mechanics (adding in-universe fluff to why SMNs only have 3 Egis, when it comes out to "the devs couldn't balance more"), but to quote a friend of mine, "As long as White Mages aren't casting Meteor, the devs can find a way to do it."

[Shurrikhan]

True, but Stormblood in particular has put additional emphasis on expanding the healer's combat rotation -- Assize and Aero III, Earthly Star and Lord of Crowns, Chain Stratagem.
Even with just a lot of "free time", encounters are typically designed with the expectation that every job will be putting damage in.

And I'd prefer, honestly, that they take that even further. I'd much, much rather play a "Support" -- where healing is a large and vital part of that, but still just one such part among multiple aspects -- than a "Healer", who interacts only with health bars rather than every possible way available to interact with party composition, player mentalities (your "DPS Chads" and so forth), and the fight itself. But at present, and I dare wager in the future as well, those skills are more... incidental than thematic, a way to fill time rather than acting as an integral piece of each job's kit.

True, but true hybridization is unlikely to occur within XIV, particularly with each role being divvied out into "main" and "off" job variants. Realistically our options are between the DoM options: pure caster, and damage-healer.

Each of the jobs you were discussing primarily have more opportunities for unique damage effects than unique utilities (at least in the case of RDM, whose entire shtick is copying two other jobs, one of whom is a healer). Yet given that many applications of necromancy have to do with exactly the same "life-death balance" you were discussing, we're talking about Necromancer as a job that either would have more opportunities for utility than damage (without just spamming multiple summon skills), or would be seriously missing out on opportunities if it tried to emphasize damage.

Again, I'm not saying it oughtn't be a healer if forced into one role or another in injecting it into the current, highly limiting version of a FF MMO. I just think it'd feel about as much a compelling version of "Necromancer" as our current BLU feels like a compelling version of BLU -- i.e. not at all -- albeit for very different reasons. And so, if I had such a job idea, I'd rather sit on it while promoting whatever changes necessary among other jobs to ready the way for a full and compelling version of my own job concept. It feels like we already have a half-baked version of Red Mage, Summoner, Blue Mage, Conjurer, and to lesser extent perhaps even Dark Knight, Machinist, and Astrologian. With Shadowbringers, we'll likely be adding Gunbreaker and Dancer to that list of jobs with "at best half their thematic potential visible in game". I see no reason to rush another into the woodchipper.

Come to think of it, though, transitioning from "Healer" to "Support" might well be the saving grace for many a healer concept tossed about the forums, be it Medic, Arbiter, Mystic/Oracle, or whatever else. If there was less of an expectation of every job having to fill the exact same healing quotas, but instead just provide similar overall and in-practice impact on its party... there's a ton more we could make use of. And at that point, Necromancer would seem a pretty good fit. Hmm.

[Archwizard]

And I'd prefer, honestly, that they take that even further. I'd much, much rather play a "Support" -- where healing is a large and vital part of that, but still just one such part among multiple aspects -- than a "Healer", who interacts only with health bars rather than every possible way available to interact with party composition, player mentalities (your "DPS Chads" and so forth), and the fight itself. But at present, and I dare wager in the future as well, those skills are more... incidental than thematic, a way to fill time rather than acting as an integral piece of each job's kit.

I rather agree, although the distinction is a thin line. The "Healers" we have presently already go beyond healing with effects like creating barrier fields or amplifying damage, it's just not their full-time job to supply those.
Much as I would love to see that expanded, there's only so much direction such can be given while still being compatible with the design of FF14 -- in the game's current iteration you won't see anyone (aside from maybe BLU), say, creating walls that block line of fire, or stealing enemy buffs, or spending entire encounters keeping key enemies completely CC-locked. Some games have tried to defy the "Holy Trinity" by implementing status effect-oriented classes who buff or debuff, but ultimately creating a dedicated role as a repository for raw utility just removes potential from other roles.
Utilities in themselves shouldn't define a role, they should help the job stand out and create opportunities for individual player contributions to shine through.
Meanwhile if you create a job that responds significantly better to certain fight mechanics or party compositions, you run into (or rather, aggravate existing) issues of job imbalance and compositional favoritism in a competitive scene.

It feels like we already have a half-baked version of Red Mage, Summoner, Blue Mage, Conjurer, and to lesser extent perhaps even Dark Knight, Machinist, and Astrologian. With Shadowbringers, we'll likely be adding Gunbreaker and Dancer to that list of jobs with "at best half their thematic potential visible in game".

I would argue it's not necessarily that these jobs are "half-baked", just that they were created with room to expand their kits later. When designing within an evolving format like an MMO, you can't ever think of any character class as "complete".

RDM, for instance; being a newer job, it's barely scratched the surface of its potential. But before we can see pinnacles like enchanting allied weapons or combining White and Black spells together into effects neither school would dream of alone, we need a foundation to build off of -- hence its seemingly "half-baked" state.
Reaching a full thematic potential is the entire journey of class design, and we're only two expansions in. AST canonically considers time manipulation to be the peak of its power.

BLU, meanwhile, has no design skeleton whatsoever beyond existing as a repository for all of the abilities that were too niche, imbalanced or impractical for a real job. It's the Giant Space Flea From Nowhere of jobs, literally made to be as bizarre as enemy encounters would allow, I'm not sure what anyone expected.