Mark of Tanaka

[Bahn]

I'm not sure I agree completely with the Yoshida-san's idea that hard core players are defined by being the first to complete sometime even though they usually are. I think its more a question of hard core players complete things early in their life-cycle when the content hasn't been figured out or dumbed down to make it accessible. Hard core players are more defined by their desire to face extreme challenges, and being number one out the gate is a secondary consideration.

To be fair to not-so-casual-or-hardcore players like me, I define hardcore players not only those who are willing to play this same game every day for hours on end, but also those who are willing to deal with bad game design decisions and overcome or get around them. What you call "dumbing down" (which IMO is a very bad misnomer) is my "fixing it to what it should've been". Remember the early days of FFXIV with the way SP worked? Then eventually they fixed that to make it so it's per kill. I hardly think that's considered a "dumbing down" of a mechanic, but rather a very bad game design decision that was fixed to be more in line with what other games NORMALLY do.

And to be fair, I think it's the other way around - their number one is to be the one "out the gate" and "do it first (and try to make it look good in the process)" - this is pretty evident with the way posts appear after stuff like Primal fights were introduced. After they get it out the door, they then learn how to take that extreme challenge and optimize it to make it better and more "efficient" for themselves. The good guys share that knowledge with the rest of the community (stand on the shoulders of giants) while the selfish ones keep it to themselves.

Another case in point for me is the crafting mechanic - after I realize within the first few months that the crafting system is one of the most inaccessible parts of the game (in terms of time spent vs reward/me not falling asleep), I gave up on it after a few months. I come back several months later and 1.19 completely fixes it up to a point where it makes sense and IMO is sane. Everyone who endured crafting and manage to get SEVERAL crafters to 50 before the 1.19 "dumbing down" are those who I consider "hardcore" (or dedicated), because they were willing to put up with the system, despite its flaws, and get to 50 regardless.

But yeah, like Orcishgrappler says, I think the dev team sometimes seems to "forget" why FFXIV was panned worldwide by critics. That's what we're here for, to remind the team that if they do make these bad game design decisions, they will simply run the risk of pulling another XIV launch fiasco when 2.0 comes out. I'm sure they're aware, but I think like I said in many posts before, we need to keep reminding them to avoid such decisions. Making the game extremely "hard" will make your hardcore base happy, but it's going to piss everyone else off - casuals and some-where-in-the-middle and most importantly new subscribers who came from possibly other games alike. But at the same time I think there's plenty of room for everyone, no one should be excluded, and I think Square has the resources and the budget to be able to do this.

Because of these occasional bad design decisions by Yoshida's team that are reminiscent of launch date XIV, I've pretty much given up trying to put "labels" on some of these things. Thanks to the (might I say rather civilized) discussion in this thread, instead of calling one of Yoshida's bad game design decisions "Tanaka-like", I think I'll just call it what it is - a bad game design decision. Period - that they did. Neither producer is better than the other, and at this point I don't care who's at the helm. They just need to make sure the current and new game they produce are accessible by all types of players and not just one or other exclusive group.

[Mireille]

To be fair to not-so-casual-or-hardcore players like me, I define hardcore players not only those who are willing to play this same game every day for hours on end, but also those who are willing to deal with bad game design decisions and overcome or get around them. What you call "dumbing down" (which IMO is a very bad misnomer) is my "fixing it to what it should've been".

You're making assumptions about what I mean by dumbing down. A craft system where you have to get weaver to level 35 to do leatherworking leve, and you have to get leatherworker to 35 in order to do weaver leve is broken. A system where you need 6 different trainings that can't be gotten till level 20+ in order to make level 1 items is broken. I got crafts to 50 before 1.19, and I still do leve post 1.19. I still see a lot of room for improvement in crafting, but most of what they have done and are talking about doing really is a fix.

Back in FF XI giving people an experience points reward for helping others with the Chains of Promathia Missions in order to encourage people to redo really challenging fights is a fix. Removing the level cap is dumbing it down. I remember the first time I set foot in Lufaise meadows because it was so hard getting there. I beat airship and Tenzen when they had a cap and that was exhilarating. Everyone had to know their job and do it well to beat those fights. Now a single 99 samurai can destroy Tenzen for the remaining 5 people in the party while they stand around watching and get them access to Sea. That's what I call dumbing it down. I'm all in favor of them making it so you don't get randomly wiped by passing easy prey mobs while doing the moogle NMs, but I am totally against them removing the walk, the spiggans, the linking, or the 5 fights themselves. Yes a lot of people don't agree with me on that but navigating a maze while abiding by certain rules is what makes the quest a game. Running to a ??? before you redo the fight is at best a time sink. The people you see standing nekkid clutching a moogle weapon at the entrance to Ul'dah aren't that proud without reason.

Making all the content for casual play would be as much a mistake as making it all for the hard core player. They game needs a mix to succeed. That and the fact that Tanaka is very good at making that type of content is my point.

There are plenty of people who would happily to ride a helicopter to the top of Mt. Everest so they can enjoy the view, and then there are people who want to make the climb because that's where the real accomplishment and bragging rights lie. I'm sure mountaineers would cringe at the analogy, but hardcore players are the same way for the most part. Honestly I don't mind not being the first to get something, but please don't make it a walk in the park or its no longer going to be fun.

BTW if Orcishgrapper is the same person who used to play XI on Carbuncle tell him Hi from Mireille, and ask him to say hi to Pandorous for me. I miss that little guy