Removing Tank Stance Argument

[Mixt]

I actually tried experimenting with going without tank stance a while back.

It didn't go well.

Shield lob (PULL)
Flash X 3
Already lost aggro
Ultimatum + Flash
Lost aggro again
Mobs kill everyone
WIPE.

...Well, how nice.

But sure, let's remove tank stance, make the above scenario the norm, why not?

[Bright-Flower]

Because a tanks damage should be naturally low, because they’re a tank, not a dps. A monk would need to sacrifice dps to tank because they’re not a tank.

A stance should be to make you do something you can’t do without it. A tank shouldn’t need a tank stance because they are already a tank. A tank at best should need a dps stance that sacrifices defence and enmity to increase damage.



But again, why should a tank need tank stance? Why not just make the tanks naturally tanky? A dps stance for when solo or not tanking is fine although the same thing is achieved by just giving them separate combos for enmity and dps, but tank stance on a tank is redundant because they should basically just BE tank stance.

The idea is to limit tank damage while tanking, but give them more damage when they're not tanking so that they're not TOO good and doing too much damage as a tank, but not left with so little damage as to be annoying to play through quests etc. I think that's the intent anyway. The idea with tank stance is to swap between those two extremes. The issue is that FFXIV content generally does not require the benefits of the tank stance, at least not for the majority of a boss fight's duration, which leads to people hardly ever using it. Were the game balanced in a way where you NEEDED the enmity and defense boost from tank stance to tank all the time it would serve more of a purpose.

I actually tried experimenting with going without tank stance a while back.

It didn't go well.

Shield lob (PULL)
Flash X 3
Already lost aggro
Ultimatum + Flash
Lost aggro again
Mobs kill everyone
WIPE.

...Well, how nice.

But sure, let's remove tank stance, make the above scenario the norm, why not?

I assume that anyone arguing to remove tank stance is assuming the extra enmity would be baked into the job, not just stripping away their enmity tools with no compensation. People don't want to just say, remove Shield Oath and make no other changes to PLD to compensate.

[Cabalabob]

The idea is to limit tank damage while tanking, but give them more damage when they're not tanking so that they're not TOO good and doing too much damage as a tank, but not left with so little damage as to be annoying to play through quests etc. I think that's the intent anyway. The idea with tank stance is to swap between those two extremes. The issue is that FFXIV content generally does not require the benefits of the tank stance, at least not for the majority of a boss fight's duration, which leads to people hardly ever using it. Were the game balanced in a way where you NEEDED the enmity and defense boost from tank stance to tank all the time it would serve more of a purpose.



I assume that anyone arguing to remove tank stance is assuming the extra enmity would be baked into the job, not just stripping away their enmity tools with no compensation. People don't want to just say, remove Shield Oath and make no other changes to PLD to compensate.

That’s what I’m getting at. Tank stance is so barely useful they could just bake it into tanks naturally then just have a dps stance that nullifies their tank benefits in exchange for dps. There’s no reason for tank stance on a tank, that should just be their natural state. Kind of like the reverse 2.x WAR where they only had defiance and they’d turn it off to dps.

[Bright-Flower]

That’s what I’m getting at. Tank stance is so barely useful they could just bake it into tanks naturally then just have a dps stance that nullifies their tank benefits in exchange for dps. There’s no reason for tank stance on a tank, that should just be their natural state. Kind of like the reverse 2.x WAR where they only had defiance and they’d turn it off to dps.

I don't think SE wants tanks to have their dps stance damage at the same time as having the tank stance boost to enmity and defense.

I wouldn't particularly mind myself, but it would require additional changes. PLD oath gauge is gained differently depending on which oath we have active. Dark Knight has some abilities that are only active, or work differently, depending on if Grit/Darkside or both are activated. I'm not sure about warriors but I think they have changes too between stances.

So they could in theory strip away tank stances and say give tanks a passive trait that boost their defense and their enmity at all times, but it would requite more work tweaking the tanks, war and drk especially, without it. And then there's the question of damage. Do you let them keep the damage they get from dps stances? Because the whole point of these stances is to nerf their dps and buff defenses/enmity when tanking, so if you let them keep the damage with no tradeoff, the question is does that make tankes too powerful, having so much defense and keeping their dps stance dps? Or do you lock their dps at tank stance levels and make solo play more frustrating?

IMO, I'd rather they either increase boss damage output so that tanks need to consistently be in defensive stance rather than just needing it for an early enmity lead, or just leave it as is, than have their damage nerfed locked in for solo content.

[Raldo]

IMO, I'd rather they either increase boss damage output so that tanks need to consistently be in defensive stance

Probably easier to just add a +30% (or whatever number) damage taken while in DPS stance.

[Bright-Flower]

Probably easier to just add a +30% (or whatever number) damage taken while in DPS stance.

Do that and people will still be trying to push for maximum uptime in dps stance, and it will effectively be the same thing we have now.

[kidalutz]

The idea is to limit tank damage while tanking, but give them more damage when they're not tanking so that they're not TOO good and doing too much damage as a tank, but not left with so little damage as to be annoying to play through quests etc. I think that's the intent anyway. The idea with tank stance is to swap between those two extremes. The issue is that FFXIV content generally does not require the benefits of the tank stance, at least not for the majority of a boss fight's duration, which leads to people hardly ever using it. Were the game balanced in a way where you NEEDED the enmity and defense boost from tank stance to tank all the time it would serve more of a purpose.



I assume that anyone arguing to remove tank stance is assuming the extra enmity would be baked into the job, not just stripping away their enmity tools with no compensation. People don't want to just say, remove Shield Oath and make no other changes to PLD to compensate.

sounds like ARR and HW PLD Pre level 40

[shao32]

I actually tried experimenting with going without tank stance a while back.

It didn't go well.

Shield lob (PULL)
Flash X 3
Already lost aggro
Ultimatum + Flash
Lost aggro again
Mobs kill everyone
WIPE.

...Well, how nice.

But sure, let's remove tank stance, make the above scenario the norm, why not?

Removing tank stance don't involve losing the enmity we use to pull already, some adjustments need to be done to accommodate this change of course, so you scenario will not be accurate at all.

[Mixt]

Removing tank stance don't involve losing the enmity we use to pull already, some adjustments need to be done to accommodate this change of course, so you scenario will not be accurate at all.

But if Tank Stance does not exist then you won't have that extra enmity gain for the inital pull, so you won't get that early enmity lead.

And then that exact scenario happens.

Seriously, pulling in DPS stance and then spamming my aggro generation move got me nowhere when i tried it, aggro went flying and people started dying.

"The enmity we use to pull" as you put it will not exist in the first place.

[xJimmehx]

Seriously, pulling in DPS stance and then spamming my aggro generation

On bosses or weak hitting mob packs, you pull in tank stance as a war, then swap to dps stance.
Berserk, Unchained, Tomahawk, Thrill of battle/Equilibrium, Deliverance(Dps stance), dps down as fast as possible. If youre gear is good you shouldnt lose aggro before they die. (unless you have an ice mage with you)

It has never failed me yet.