Removing Tank Stance Argument

[GrindShack]

I am only going to comment as a Drk as I haven't used Pld OR War since pre Heavensward, but I want a Tank stance it helps if I'm not Main Tank, so that I dont pull hate off the MT while im DPSing. but what makes no sense to me is Darkside... Love the red swirling aura, but why would you ever want it turned off, its always on, or should be... so if I should have it on all the time and never take it off why then is it not a Passive Trait? or at least tied into my Grit, otherwise it is just another button I have to press at the start of a dungeon, also Grit will stay on after a sync but darkside wont, when grit is the optional one you have to pay attention to.

TLDR: why would I turn off Darkside ever?

[deadman1204]

One idea to make stances more relevant is have dps stance give a defensive penalty.
Make it so you CANNOT take everything outside of wall to wall pulling in dps stance. This then gives the complexity of when to use what, because there is never a "always best" stance

[Big-Isaac]

Nobody reasonable would say that tanks should do absolutely zero damage. That's just silly. However, dealing damage shouldn't be nearly as big a priority as it presently is.
If I was standing in front of a cyclops the size of a building with an uprooted tree in its hand, my first thought would not be to throw my shield to the ground and try to poke it in the jugular. Especially when there's 4 other people in my party who are (A) infinitely more efficient at poking it in the jugular and (B) aren't about to get smashed with a freaking tree

In my opinion, the best compromise would be to rebalance the tanks so that achieving max DPS also achieves max survivability. That way you'd still have incentive to optimize your deeps without abandoning what the role is supposed to be about.

[SargentToughie]

In my opinion, the best compromise would be to rebalance the tanks so that achieving max DPS also achieves max survivability. That way you'd still have incentive to optimize your deeps without abandoning what the role is supposed to be about.

I don't entirely agree with how you came to it, but I do agree with the conclusion. Tanks are the big, sturdy badasses that, while not quite able to match the damage of an express DPS, are still able to lay out enough pain on their own that they're a force to be reckoned with. I think "infinitely" more efficient is a bit of a stretch. Tanks have some of the biggest, angriest looking weapons in the game. It would just be wrong if they couldn't use them proper.

That said, max DPS also equating to max survivability is something I've wanted since Heavensward. One skill ceiling, one ideal playstyle, no more of this stupid tank stance bickering nonsense, and no more fostering bad habits in newcomers about what ideal gameplay looks like. I still see tanks that just sit in stance and 1-2-3 combo at level 70, it's insane.

[FallenWings]

I mean, I'd much prefer to slice the troll in the jugular thus removing the threat rather than cower behind my dinky shield and await inevitable death or hope my DPS overlords would grace me with mercy and flick the troll away but to each their own.

I personally would prefer if tanks *did* do as much damage as DPS but with the caveat being that the DPS held the actual raid boosting abilities as to prevent the "dreaded" all tank parties and still retain their exclusive usefulness.
To illustrate it would be something like:
Tanks and DPS do 1000 dps ea.

A full tank party does 6000(6 tanks)
But a full proper party does 12,000 (2 tanks 4 DPS) through various buffing, debuffing or even new mechanics like destroying certain boss parts in the rear and/or flank that causes a state of temporary vulnerability.

This would enable tanks (and maybe even healers) to participate *equally* in contributing in the winning metric(killing the enemy) rather than only play with the prevention of loss which has no real room to excel in(mitigation and healing). But I don't know, maybe people just simply want to feel more powerful than someone else rather than feel like they're working in a team (Selfish DPS classes /vomit) so there's always a constant demand that DPS do 20x big numbers while tanks and healers play in the kiddie pool with their pool noodles and can only support the chad DPS who constantly wonder why their queues are so long and no one is playing these support roles. Tanks and healers adjust. /shrug

But tangent aside, rather than removal of Tank Stances, I am of the side that Tank Stances should instead be changed to accommodate a non punishing play style dependent on the situation. And to go further on that, I feel that all Passive Cooldowns like Rampart or it's ilk should be replaced with the magnificent concept that is The Blackest Night. Effective mitigation that rewards with more damage. (Ofcourse Bloodspiller should be buffed so that it is an actual gain from TBN rather than being a loss or at best DPS neutral but that's beside the point)

This should allow tanks to acquire a skill ceiling that is relevant to their suggested priorities: mitigation and give the player a tangible reward for excellent execution(more damage = more winning). One easy to digest goal and progression. Unga bunga me defend good, me attack/reflect better!

But at the end of the day I can understand the necessary evil that a tank stance provides because as binary as survival is, it does have a huge raid wiping consequence and as with their design philosophy with Stormblood of lowering the skill floor, especially if Billy 1-2-3 Tank stance spam is also a target audience, tanks just need to brain dead for the sake of everyone else that isn't the tank player.

[Kabooa]

I personally would prefer if tanks *did* do as much damage as DPS but with the caveat being that the DPS held the actual raid boosting abilities as to prevent the "dreaded" all tank parties and still retain their exclusive usefulness.

Sure, as long as DPS can mitigate damage as well as tanks then.

But don't worry, tanks will still have all the threat controllers, so -ideally- you still want tanks so you can properly plan your cooldowns instead of playing threat ping pong.

[FallenWings]

Sure, as long as DPS can mitigate damage as well as tanks then.

But don't worry, tanks will still have all the threat controllers, so -ideally- you still want tanks so you can properly plan your cooldowns instead of playing threat ping pong.

God forbid we give our poor DPS any more responsibility beyond 0.

[Kabooa]

God forbid we give our poor DPS any more responsibility beyond 0.

The only combat role the tank can claim sole responsibility of in this game now is add interception.

Everything else that used to be the sole realm of tanks have been part and parceled to every other job to share in or gets automated.

[FallenWings]

The only combat role the tank can claim sole responsibility of in this game now is add interception.

Everything else that used to be the sole realm of tanks have been part and parceled to every other job to share in or gets automated.

I didn't participate in Stormblood but I heard that boss auto positioning was pretty bad. Maybe the only solution left is to delete tanks altogether and have a controllable pet to tank. That'll fix tank population.

[Veritas-Ancora]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if "Tank Defensive Stance" was changed like the new Cleric Stance.

Give me 10 seconds of ungodly amounts of enmity in all my abilities.

Dungeon big pulls? Fixed.
Extreme runs? Fixed.
Savage mode tank swaps? Fixed.

You only need 10 seconds (or less) of Enmity boost. Yeah you could say "Shirk" but that's not gonna work in dungeons, so boost up the enmity and let the tank do their DPS combo. You don't even need to add defensive or attack changes.

Or do. Life is short.