New Player Experience Sucks! - Impending Expansion Problems

[Physic]

These things are a draw for a minority of MMO players. The vast majority of MMO players are there for the story, to role-play, for the game/world setting, because their friends/family play there, it's the follow-on game from prior games they played, etc.

Look at WoW - a MMO which has generally always been known as a "Raid or go away" game, where all you ever heard about from it was it's raiding scene. Yet raider's made up less than 5% of it's population - prior to the past 2 expansions: as the past 2 expansions have forced players to raid if they want to complete the expansions base story, as there were raids interjected into the base story, unlike prior expansions which only had the end/conclusion of the story tied into raids.

This was reveled back in 2012 or so when the Devs, on the old WoW forums, discussed the changes they had made to Raiding back in 2008/2009 when WotLK had launched, why they had moved the top vanilla raid to be the 1st raid in LK, and why they had worked on the 'Looking For Raid' system.

They stated that the Dev's were unhappy that so few ppl ever experienced the content they had lavished much love on to create, thus they wanted to try and encourage/push more ppl into raiding and experience the raids. They also reveled the shocking low %'s of ppl who had ever touched ding:

- Only 6% of players had ever stepped foot in a raid
- Only 4% had ever even finished the 1st raid
- Only 1% got to the final raid
- Less than 0.5% ever completed the last raid.

So yeah, for a "Raid or don't bother playing" game that all you ever really heard about was it's raiding scene... very few actually ever even bothered to raid or do endgame dungeons or content.

Take another "Raid focused" game: Wildstar. This was going to be the hardcore MMO for all those hardcore raiders. Yet after it flopped and went F2P, it's dev's admitted that they were surprised about how few people even bothered to go through the dungeon grind to attune for raids, or how few ppl even seemed interested in the raids & endgame dungeons. In fact they said the vast majority of ppl were looking for open-world stuff they could do either solo or with friends/guilds.

Look at another MMO which came out with dungeons, Guild Wars 2. Yes it was billed as a 'casual MMO', but it also had dungeons with a harder mode attached to it. The dev's eventually abandoned making any more dungeons, or even doing any work on the current ones, due to lack of people doing them and lack of interest in re-working them (as compared to interest in other things).

Take another MMO, SW:TOR. A bumbling story-driven WoW clone. But it did have it's endgame raids... and once again the amount of people doing these raids were small. The vast majority of ppl playing the game played the story and either left, or played the story from the other classes. This is also a game which has the same issue as FFXIV - you can't do the "endgame" dungeons & raids without having done the story 1st. But never really saw anyone much complaining about that... at least when I was reading the official forums *shrugs*

Look at ESO, another story-driven MMO. It releases "hard" dungeons once a year as part of it's development cycle (1 expansion, 1 story-based DLC, 1 dungeon based dlc per year)... and these dungeons are also the lowest populated content in the game. You can see the % of ppl clearing/finishing these dungeons is in the 6-10% range. The vast majority of ESO players have no interest in 'endgame raids / dungeons'. The same small % can be seen on the clears/finish's of the basegame endgame solo & group trials.

You can go look at most MMO's out there, be it FFXIV, WoW, ESO, SW:TOR, GW2, STO, etc and what you'll find is the same: the vast majority of players do not raid, they do not do hard content, they do not race to endgame so they can run the same dungeons/raids over and over and over and over again.
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Regarding the subject matter: About the only thing I'd support personally is if they were able to change the story-skip potion so it just placed you at the end of X expansion, and allowed you to go back and experience it unchanged when/if you want. Although this aspect is supposedly being addressed with the "Newgame+" system, where people who have finished the story can restart it and go through it from scratch again.

gw 2 got rid of dungeons, to add raids, but also in gw2 you can do everything with friends, including storymissions, in swtor, you can also do everything with friends. Also in gw2 you can complete story whenever you want, skipping around if you want. Having a primarily solo story is fine, but not having access to virtually anything without story, most of which is group content is problematic, and it gets worse the more story there is.

[Shougun]

gw 2 got rid of dungeons, to add raids, but also in gw2 you can do everything with friends, including storymissions, in swtor, you can also do everything with friends. Also in gw2 you can complete story whenever you want, skipping around if you want. Having a primarily solo story is fine, but not having access to virtually anything without story, most of which is group content is problematic, and it gets worse the more story there is.

Personally I think it might be a bit dangerous to argue that everyone wants to skip because of end game (might lose, imo, the bigger picture gain if sticking on that although I agree there are some people who feel that way).

Imo a stronger arguing point (in getting something interesting done*) is that SOME people would get strong value out of a baseline optional story skip because "end game" is the only real game (to those people) but that also some people are coming to play the story content they were interested in rather than the massive mountain locking away what they came in for. Which I'm actually happy Rokke is now a living example for me to reference that second point specifically as I think that's actually a quite likely issue (thanks mate lol).

As I said many people coming into an MMO late are not suddenly seeing that ancient vanilla trailer and going OH WOW I WANT TO PLAY THAT, they're seeing the hype hurricane of whatever is new and fancy. Even some of those may have already been aware of ARR/HW/whatever and are giving it a second chance explicitly because the new info got their interest, which the old content /does not/ interest them. That doesn't mean all of those people who saw the hurricane don't want to learn and play the history first of course but it does mean there is a portion of those that are interested in and X and telling them "how about many many hours of Y first?" is a good way to disinterest them at multiple stages. Stage one being some just don't get into the game, stage two being they start but just get drained because "ugh this wasn't what I signed up for", of course some make it to stage 3 like it seems Rokke did (made it through to get to what they really wanted but didn't like having to go through that old stuff).

Altogether it might not make the majority of players but I doubt it is a small 0.5% of the community either. Although it's a feeling (a strong one) as it'd be hard to properly calculate since some of those who never make it to the later content may be people burned out from above and not just lovers of the story. Like "I wanted Z, it seems I'm never going to make it - I quit" or they didn't buy the game because they were told to get to Z they had to either play days worth of (in game) time first or pay an extra game's worth. Pushing another game's worth cost on top of it being a monthly sub game, or you haven't got them invested because they're doing content they didn't really want to do, that is like premium grade formula to not have them continue their sub after the trailer period lol. Worse I think is some people didn't get to the story they wanted because of so much of the story they didn't want (it wasn't about end game for them, it was just about so much stuff they didn't want to invest in first, like lets say if Rokke quit before getting to the dragons they liked). Just a reminder I'm talking about a subset of people, not all new people interested in the game (don't want people to think i'm saying everyone is this way).

*I say interesting about possible solutions to this problem because imo making a story and level potion baseline is rather "eh" to me as it introduces new problems like tossing someone into SQUIRREL SQUIRREL WHAT DO I DO OMG SO MUCH STUFF territory (beyond that you're not giving them any basic direction, you don't need 100 hours to do that but at least an hour or two could go a long ways in investing and grounding the player in the game).

This is why I've sort of hung in this thread longer than I might otherwise, I think with our new game+ mechanic coming around that we can actually make new "new game" stories that /everyone/ (including us veterans) can enjoy and get value out of and will also double down as an optional introduction to those people who are like "what do you mean 1111 combat and 268 quests before I can kill the dragons? Just toss me into HW please, I swear I want to play the game just not.. that". Of course like I've been hammering with the whole witcher 1 2 3 thing, maybe people actually go back after they're invested (not all in the witcher case but still I'm sure a number did).

That is a big thing I think to the health of the game, if you can get people into the content they wanted to be in (or at least a lot closer than days worth of game time) and invest them in the world then they can take that investment and put it into other things like "oh I guess I do actually want to know about ARR" (or they may never care, but at least they have a higher chance of sticking around). Get the players to invest time into something they want and then you have a higher chance they'll broaden their taste and keep investing (if they like the game, and a higher chance they will if you give them more like the content they were actually originally interested in). I say broaden since as an example you might be like "wow low level combat looks awful, but I really want to learn more about the origins - I'll do it!" like how perhaps a player of witcher 3 goes back to 1 even though the systems are not as nearly as polished (accepting some issues because they've decided they can lower some standards as other points are actually valued to compensate now that they're into the scene).

So maybe confusingly there are like 8+ reasons why I am a bit excited and want to see it happen lol. Not a crazy fan how FFXIV starts (I think the first 1-2 hours are a bit "eh"), the many reasons why a jump can be valuable (some mentioned here), I think jump potions are a dangerous option (just toss people into the deep end of the pool, some people will sink), I think telling people to pay extra is another "iffy" action that may dissuade (when it was just HW I thought it was not really that important but we're now another expansion deep and the mountainous lock will only get bigger), adding a new start means a new quest chain for us all (for veterans it's like adding those scholar Ishgard quests except probably better even since these intros will need more attention), etc.. etc..

[Kamatsu]

Speak for yourself, don't try and vouch for other players.

You know what I find amusing with this? I always see people who try and push for more hardcore content / story-squishing to get to endgame faster / more raids / etc always try and push/imply that the way they play is the way everyone plays.

IE. Look at the post I quoted in my initial post, the OP, many of the replies throughout this thread from ppl wanting the MSQ slashed and/or allow characters to start at the new expansion... they very much try and act like they speak for more players than themselves, and imply they are the majority.

Yet the numbers speak for themselves - those who participate in endgame dungeons, raids, hardcore content, etc and/or want to skip main-story for this content are the minority of the players. The majority never touch it.

Yeah. Honestly, enough people apparently participate in higher end content...otherwise they wouldn't bother using time and money to make them. If there's enough incentive though even the most casual of players may dabble in challenging content now and then. I'm pretty casual myself but I will hop into a current Extreme trial if I feel the rewards are worth it. Haven't been much of a raider though since 2012 near the end of WoW's Cataclysm expansion. But I do enter normal and 24 man raids in FF XIV regularly. I understand that by most standards that isn't really raiding but it's called a raid so...yeah. LFR in WoW, 24 man and normal "story mode" raids in FF XIV are pretty much my jam.

There was huge incentivesd in WoW to play the raids - better gear, more money, and the conclusion of the games story. Yet under 6% of players ever stepped foot in them till LFR was introduced into the game. It doesn't matter how much 'incentive' you stick in something, if it's something that players do not like or want to do, then they will not do it.

IE: Of the 94% of WoW players who never raided in vanilla, BC or LK raids... I'll promise you there were a lot who were extremely keen for WoW's story and lore. Yet they never did the raids themselves. Instead they watched ppl do the raids on Youtube and/or read the lore on a lore site/wiki.

Or the achievement hunters who never stepped into any raids till they were 2-3+ expansions later. There are a lot of people who chase achievement points, but never did the 'endgame' content when it was relevant. Why? Because they did not like or want to raid, so they waited till they could over-power the raids due to higher level & gear... and then did it.

Look at ESO, they are tying the 5th birthday celebration tickets into their PvP zone... yet there are plenty of people who are avoiding the PvP. Even though they are chasing the tickets and the rewards they get with the tickets... because they dislike PvP so much they are avoiding it and missing out on rewards that they want.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there's no desire for endgame content, harder content, etc. Obviously there is. And I'm glad that Dev's put time and effort into making content for those who like this content. But I am sick and tired of ppl who like this content trying to act like they are the majority - they aren't.

As for FFXIV's 24-man content... lolz. Unless your talking about SB's 24-man content, the rest is a jok. And even with SB's... as long as 60-70% of the ppl in the raid are somewhat decent and know the mechanics you should be able to complete it (yes, I've been through them times with 3-5 wipes but finished anyways). WoW's LFR are brainless raids as well... well, they were when I did them... although I did do serious raiding back in BC (and by serious I mean I was in the 'B' team of a guild that was chasing world 1st's for it's server).

gw 2 got rid of dungeons, to add raids, but also in gw2 you can do everything with friends, including storymissions, in swtor, you can also do everything with friends. Also in gw2 you can complete story whenever you want, skipping around if you want. Having a primarily solo story is fine, but not having access to virtually anything without story, most of which is group content is problematic, and it gets worse the more story there is.

GW2's raids are also not the most popular content added to the game. In fact, they pulled a really shonky thing to try and force players into doing the raids (unless it's been changed, which is possible as it's been awhile since I've been there) - to try and force players into the raid... they put a needed Mastery in there. So anyone who wanted to finish out their Masteries would HAVE to do the raid regardless of whether they wanted to or not. Don't do the raid? Forever be stuck not being able to finish the Mastery's and unlock everything it did.

Oh, and you can't do everything in GW2 or SW:TOR with friends. Most of the story instances (GW2's vanilla personal story & all of SW:TOR's class stories) are SOLO only, not able to be done with friends at all. GW2 I believe has fixed this with the Living Story being able to be done with groups instead of solo. SW:TOR's last 2 main expansions still has the main story insstances/quest's being solo-only.

As for the last point.. I will agree that for those who don't want to play a story-based MMO for it's story and just want to jump into grinding dungeons, trials & alliance raids... being forced to play through the MSQ to unlock these is troublematic. And even with the story & class skip potions, they'd still have to play the MSQ for the 'current' expansion to unlock it's dungeons, trials and raids.

Maybe they could add another skip potion that unlocked dungeons, trials, raids for players so they could do them whenever... as long as they met the level & gear reuirements. Sure they'd still have to level up somewhat to even start the dungeon running... but hey, that would take 1? day of MSQ even without the road-to-60 buff. Or buy a class-skip potion.

And yes, my suggestion is another 'pay for it' option. Because whether you use a potion or play the MSQ, you'll be paying for it - either with time or money. So if your time is more valuable, cough up the money... else play through the MSQ.

[aeoncs]

You do realise clear rates and participation rate in Savage and Ultimate are abysmally low? The only reason they keep doing them is because they keep the higher tier players around.

While this is absolutely true for Ultimate, the participation rate of Savage definitely isn't "abysmally low" in any region and the same is true for the clear rate on Japanese DCs. Savage being content for the one percent hasn't been the case since Midas; plenty of players participate, even from the casual crowd.
Not to mention that clear numbers aren't even remotely accurate considering that they're based on people having the mount - I've cleared 3 Savage tiers and yet I only have a single mount because... well, PuGs.

[Melorie]

I think that the problem here is not "people wanting to rush to end game", it is the fact that, in order to unlock almost anything in the game, you have to spend hours doing solo stuff. FFXIV is a good game, but it's 90% solo and most people that play MMOs don't wanna play a single player game. FFXIV history is good, I like it, I've enjoyed doing it. But doesn't change the fact that it's a very bad design for a MMO, and everytime I get a new friend to play the game, I remember that.

Yes, you'll have people that want to rush to endgame - you'll always have, and I don't know why you people should care so much about them, since how they decide to play a game shouldn't be your concern. But they're hardly the majority. I think that there are a lot of people that would like to enjoy the journey, if only the journey wasn't getting to one npc to the next while reading text for hundred of hours.

[van_arn]

I think that the problem here is not "people wanting to rush to end game", it is the fact that, in order to unlock almost anything in the game, you have to spend hours doing solo stuff. FFXIV is a good game, but it's 90% solo and most people that play MMOs don't wanna play a single player game. FFXIV history is good, I like it, I've enjoyed doing it. But doesn't change the fact that it's a very bad design for a MMO, and everytime I get a new friend to play the game, I remember that.

Yes, you'll have people that want to rush to endgame - you'll always have, and I don't know why you people should care so much about them, since how they decide to play a game shouldn't be your concern. But they're hardly the majority. I think that there are a lot of people that would like to enjoy the journey, if only the journey wasn't getting to one npc to the next while reading text for hundred of hours.

Pretty succinct. I've recruited a few friends, and more than half ended up getting burnt out on the fedexing before they mattered. While a lot of them started off enjoying the story, the quantity of the social-discouraged play eventually wore them down.

[Melorie]

Pretty succinct. I've recruited a few friends, and more than half ended up getting burnt out on the fedexing before they mattered. While a lot of them started off enjoying the story, the quantity of the social-discouraged play eventually wore them down.

Yeah! And I mean, while I like the story, with the time that gets you to complete ARR main quest line, you can probably play a much better single player rpg out there, with a much better history and that will probably give you a bigger sense of progress while telling their tale and maybe even with less filler (if you're not going for those open-world rpgs...). Of course, it's going to be a solo experience but it woud be the same with FFXIV.

And giving people paid options doesn't really solve the problem. People have to like the game to start investing in it, and the new-player experience is far from something that will sell these expensive jump potions easily. Most people would rather give up than invest.

[Halivel]

At one hand I do understand new players struggling about being unable to play relevant content without additional paying (skip potions). On the other, due to focus on the story it's guite hard to change in its core.

What they can do is remove chains MSQ-Raid as they did with Crystal Tower sidestory not so long ago. So, let's say, as soon as you reach 60, you are able to start Alexander quests by default. Theoretically they also can unlock all dungeons by default, but it will be a mechanic thing: opening dungeon is an activity locked by quest (most of them are locked in side quests anyway, though). But there is another problem: raids and dungeons will be locked in areas... which are unavalaible for you because you didn't reach there by MSQ. So reworking all of this can take some time for sure.

Making parts of MSQ optional in the first place looks quite complicated. FF14 has a solid story, so starting right from 5.0 can be very confusing. It's like missing multiplication table and starting right from theory of limits. Still could be a good thing for those who is okay with this or for those, who level their alts, but then they gonna lose money for skip potions which, I suspect, is not an option.

[Penthea]

they dont have content unlocked because the main story gates most of the content. Your logic is circular.

Please tell me how a lvl 20 character would be able to do lvl 30+ dungeons synced with players of similar lvl. I'll say it again; WoW doesn't have a msq but it doesn't automatically mean all the content is unlocked or doable at low lvl. Your options are small at low lvl in every mmorpg.

At this point I think you're just deliberately trying to misunderstand me.

assuming msq wasnt gating content, you could level up together the whole time. start at level 1, get on your clas you havent played, do fates, kill monsters, explore until 15 do some dungeons, get 18 mix in some potd. Then when you log off, or they are alone they do all the story stuff they are interested in.

It appears the person who has a problem with the msq isn't your friend, it's you. You don't want to be around when your friend is doing it.

leveling is a group activity mostly

Ah, no. It's a mix of group and solo content. How much you do of one or the other is up to you, but it's always a mix. For example you can choose to only do msq, or you can choose to mix in roulettes, fates and leves with it.

leveling is a group activity mostly, story is not, so story gating leveling makes it pretty rough.

But it can be if you weren't so allergic to the msq that you cannot fathom the idea of starting an alt to play with your buddy.

You hate the msq, I get it. But what you want would change a major core aspect of the game. Everything is tied to the msq in some manner be it mechanically, by lore or both. It is central to the game.

I would be shocked if SE detached the msq from the lvling experience given that they would have to alter a gigantic amount of the game to facilitate this. They would have to change the prerequisites of an incredible amount of content. It wouldn't be just dungeons. It would also be other content like side quests, the gold saucer, the challenge log, Palace of the Dead, beast tribes...the list goes on and on. I doubt they would put in this much work for a minority. Especially when other things like new playable content, adding male viera and female hrothgar or fixing housing would be far better received.

And especially considering jump potions exist. SE at the end of the day are a business. They're not going to work on making the msq an entirely separate entity from the rest of the game when they know that if they don't they will sell more jump potions.

[Emmanellain]

I've found that most of the people I've introduced to this MMO tend to get tuckered out by ARR, as it contains a LOT of filler. The ones that stayed were the ones that managed to make it to HW, once they engage with HW their perception of the game changes, as the overall story improves a lot.
And I don't blame them, to be honest.

ARR is boring, I've played 3 alts through the story and slogging through it is painful, with new game+ they have an opportunity to go back and condense ARRs story and make it more engaging for new players if the hardware allows them to, at least I hope they consider it, because it's really, really bloated. Nowadays when I invite friends to play I pay for their ARR skip and have them watch the important cutscenes from ARR on youtube when they show signs of fatigue.