New Player Experience Sucks! - Impending Expansion Problems

[Physic]

No it's not designed for a group but by your other posts you made it sound like it was impossible for a group. It's not. If you want to accompany someone doing the msq, you can. If you want to help them do their quests, you can.

But you know, you could just make an alt character or use an alt class to play with your friend. What's wrong with doing that? Or are you one of those people who MUST play their main?



Because you need a specific number of friends to do it unless you plan on doing it unsynced. You need three more for dungeons and seven for trials. So if you have only two friends and don't want to unsync, you gotta queue.



I agree but you kept harping on about how the msq quests are some massive wall literally preventing you and your buddies from playing together, and I was telling you it's not. You can accompany them if you want to.



You mean playing with people who have reached high lvl and those who have not. WoW does not have a msq but it didn't mean you could do everything together regardless of lvl. You cannot for the simple fact that low lvl players don't have much content unlocked. Unless you count spamming the same few dungeons over and over again as a wealth of content.



If there was no msq it wouldn't change the fact that low lvl players don't have much content unlocked so I don't see the point of this at all.

And many players do not feel the incentive to skip any of that even if they're a new player among friends who have been playing for years. A lot of players love that the game has both legitimate single player and multi-player aspects to it. Don't make sweeping statements like that. Not everyone feels the same.



Well, newsflash; this is a different game. The story is central to the whole game. It makes sense to have to work through it given how it is written. If it was optional then it wouldn't be central, so then the game would no longer be the same.

they dont have content unlocked because the main story gates most of the content. Your logic is circular.

assuming msq wasnt gating content, you could level up together the whole time. start at level 1, get on your clas you havent played, do fates, kill monsters, explore until 15 do some dungeons, get 18 mix in some potd. Then when you log off, or they are alone they do all the story stuff they are interested in.

leveling is a group activity mostly, story is not, so story gating leveling makes it pretty rough.

[Penthea]

they dont have content unlocked because the main story gates most of the content. Your logic is circular.

Please tell me how a lvl 20 character would be able to do lvl 30+ dungeons synced with players of similar lvl. I'll say it again; WoW doesn't have a msq but it doesn't automatically mean all the content is unlocked or doable at low lvl. Your options are small at low lvl in every mmorpg.

At this point I think you're just deliberately trying to misunderstand me.

assuming msq wasnt gating content, you could level up together the whole time. start at level 1, get on your clas you havent played, do fates, kill monsters, explore until 15 do some dungeons, get 18 mix in some potd. Then when you log off, or they are alone they do all the story stuff they are interested in.

It appears the person who has a problem with the msq isn't your friend, it's you. You don't want to be around when your friend is doing it.

leveling is a group activity mostly

Ah, no. It's a mix of group and solo content. How much you do of one or the other is up to you, but it's always a mix. For example you can choose to only do msq, or you can choose to mix in roulettes, fates and leves with it.

leveling is a group activity mostly, story is not, so story gating leveling makes it pretty rough.

But it can be if you weren't so allergic to the msq that you cannot fathom the idea of starting an alt to play with your buddy.

You hate the msq, I get it. But what you want would change a major core aspect of the game. Everything is tied to the msq in some manner be it mechanically, by lore or both. It is central to the game.

I would be shocked if SE detached the msq from the lvling experience given that they would have to alter a gigantic amount of the game to facilitate this. They would have to change the prerequisites of an incredible amount of content. It wouldn't be just dungeons. It would also be other content like side quests, the gold saucer, the challenge log, Palace of the Dead, beast tribes...the list goes on and on. I doubt they would put in this much work for a minority. Especially when other things like new playable content, adding male viera and female hrothgar or fixing housing would be far better received.

And especially considering jump potions exist. SE at the end of the day are a business. They're not going to work on making the msq an entirely separate entity from the rest of the game when they know that if they don't they will sell more jump potions.

[Physic]

Please tell me how a lvl 20 character would be able to do lvl 30+ dungeons synced with players of similar lvl. I'll say it again; WoW doesn't have a msq but it doesn't automatically mean all the content is unlocked or doable at low lvl. Your options are small at low lvl in every mmorpg.

At this point I think you're just deliberately trying to misunderstand me.



It appears the person who has a problem with the msq isn't your friend, it's you. You don't want to be around when your friend is doing it.



Ah, no. It's a mix of group and solo content. How much you do of one or the other is up to you, but it's always a mix. For example you can choose to only do msq, or you can choose to mix in roulettes, fates and leves with it.



But it can be if you weren't so allergic to the msq that you cannot fathom the idea of starting an alt to play with your buddy.

You hate the msq, I get it. But what you want would change a major core aspect of the game. Everything is tied to the msq in some manner be it mechanically, by lore or both. It is central to the game.

I would be shocked if SE detached the msq from the lvling experience given that they would have to alter a gigantic amount of the game to facilitate this. They would have to change the prerequisites of an incredible amount of content. It wouldn't be just dungeons. It would also be other content like side quests, the gold saucer, the challenge log, Palace of the Dead, beast tribes...the list goes on and on. I doubt they would put in this much work for a minority. Especially when other things like new playable content, adding male viera and female hrothgar or fixing housing would be far better received.

And especially considering jump potions exist. SE at the end of the day are a business. They're not going to work on making the msq an entirely separate entity from the rest of the game when they know that if they don't they will sell more jump potions.

uhh i feel like you havent done msq in a long time. Even when you are the same level, most of the time is spent teleporting around talking to npcs and watching cutscenes, you cannot do that with your friend, you have to progress it yourself. There are a handful of times you get some spawned enemies. Heres how it goes when you are both same level:


ok, lets do our quest stuff (one finishes) ok let me know when you finish your cutscene..... kill 2 guys, ok lets do our quests again, teleport talk to 8 dudes, ok let me drop story to do solo instances, do teleport drop off cutscene, he remake party, lets kill two monsters.

its not something that works out to feel like playing together. You can not believe me, but other people said the same thing, and i ve actually done it. And yes, me and others have had friends tell us out their own mouths that they just wanted to play together, or the msq was messing up their enjoyment. This thread isnt for my benefit, i have a level 70, this is people recognizing a problem, that only gets worse with each expansion.

They can ignore it, but they will continue to lose a % of referals, that they might not lose otherwise.

and they dont have to do a ton of work, the story skip potions can apparently unlock everything up to whatever story point they choose, new game + will allow players to go back. The tech is alreafy there, they might have to make a new menu, or npc, thats about it.

I am not saying they need to let people skip levels for free just choose to how to tackle story.

[Penthea]

uhh i feel like you havent done msq in a long time.

I invite you to look up my fc in the lodestone. You will see a rank called "officer alt". I have three alts in that rank. The alts that do not belong to me have the first name of one of the officers in the character names. I would be happy to even log in and speak with you on those alts if you don't believe me. I also have alts on other servers.

Even when you are the same level, most of the time is spent teleporting around talking to npcs and watching cutscenes, you cannot do that with your friend, you have to progress it yourself.

There are a handful of times you get some spawned enemies. Heres how it goes when you are both same level:

ok, lets do our quest stuff (one finishes) ok let me know when you finish your cutscene..... kill 2 guys, ok lets do our quests again, teleport talk to 8 dudes, ok let me drop story to do solo instances, do teleport drop off cutscene, he remake party, lets kill two monsters.

You just said that's only a handful of times. So what about the rest of the time then? I suppose the implication is that it's fine?

I have done the msq with friends before. I didn't find it as cumbersome as you make it out to be. I admit that leaving and remaking parties is a mild annoyance at times but it didn't bother me too much as it literally takes two seconds.

its not something that works out to feel like playing together. You can not believe me, but other people said the same thing, and i ve actually done it.

I believe that you feel that way. What I don't believe is that everyone does or that enough people do that SE need to do a huge amount of work to change the msq.

They can ignore it, but they will continue to lose a % of referals, that they might not lose otherwise.

The only part of the msq that needs a serious look at is the lvl 50 patch content, it's notorious for causing the feeling of being dragged down to some new players. I enjoyed it but even I feel that there is too much travelling back and forth going on. Some cutscenes in the game teleport you to the next area. Introducing this to those quests would help streamline the experience a lot. So much of the running around is quite literally irrelevant to the story.

and they dont have to do a ton of work, the story skip potions can apparently unlock everything up to whatever story point they choose, new game + will allow players to go back. The tech is alreafy there, they might have to make a new menu, or npc, thats about it.

The story skip potions don't work the way you think. They basically do the quests for you given you cannot go do them yourself after using the potion. Leaving the quests intact but removing triggers they have, such as unlocking content or unlocking quests, is what would need to be done to achieve what you want. Having a bunch of redundant quest triggers could actually cause some bugs. For example a trigger might have a fit if you have already done the quest it's supposed to open up, or it might have a fit it triggers nothing and it keeps trying to retrigger to fulfil its function. Leaving behind old code that used to have a function is -never- a good idea.

I am not saying they need to let people skip levels for free just choose to how to tackle story.

Doing it the way you want it done would change the game a lot. What you're asking for isn't a mere convenience but would actually change the most central element of the game. The msq is the road everyone must walk to interact with the game. Even those who use jump potions have to at some point (unless they plan on unsubbing until the next jump potion is released). Removing the msq from its mechanical connections to content would be removing that road and replacing it with another. You're basically asking for a different game. Not necessarily a bad game, but it's certainly not the same game.

[Physic]

I invite you to look up my fc in the lodestone. You will see a rank called "officer alt". I have three alts in that rank. The alts that do not belong to me have the first name of one of the officers in the character names. I would be happy to even log in and speak with you on those alts if you don't believe me. I also have alts on other servers.



You just said that's only a handful of times. So what about the rest of the time then? I suppose the implication is that it's fine?

I have done the msq with friends before. I didn't find it as cumbersome as you make it out to be. I admit that leaving and remaking parties is a mild annoyance at times but it didn't bother me too much as it literally takes two seconds.



I believe that you feel that way. What I don't believe is that everyone does or that enough people do that SE need to do a huge amount of work to change the msq.



The only part of the msq that needs a serious look at is the lvl 50 patch content, it's notorious for causing the feeling of being dragged down to some new players. I enjoyed it but even I feel that there is too much travelling back and forth going on. Some cutscenes in the game teleport you to the next area. Introducing this to those quests would help streamline the experience a lot. So much of the running around is quite literally irrelevant to the story.



The story skip potions don't work the way you think. They basically do the quests for you given you cannot go do them yourself after using the potion. Leaving the quests intact but removing triggers they have, such as unlocking content or unlocking quests, is what would need to be done to achieve what you want. Having a bunch of redundant quest triggers could actually cause some bugs. For example a trigger might have a fit if you have already done the quest it's supposed to open up. Leaving behind old code that used to have a function is -never- a good idea.



Doing it the way you want it done would change the game a lot. What you're asking for isn't a mere convenience but would actually change the most central element of the game. The msq is the road everyone must walk to interact with the game. Even those who use jump potions have to at some point (unless they plan on unsubbing until thenext jump potion is released). Removing the msq from its mechanical connections to content would be removing that road and replacing it with another. You're basically asking for a different game. Not necessarily a bad game, but it's certainly not the same game.

i never said every player hates/has problems with msq, just that a decent % do. Allowing those people to opt out wont hurt those that opt in, and will get more people to the parts they like.

as to the story skip, it shows they can by pressing button, move a player from one story step to another. New game+ shows they can allow people who have already unlocked content to experience it without losing unlocks. This means both parts needed for what i am talking about already exist.

A complete rework of msq might be expensive(might be worth it) but thats not what i am saying they should do.

Allow people to unlock content, if they wish, and go back and do story later, if they wish. both parts are already going to be available in july, just allow new players to access it.


and you misunderstood my comment about once in awhile. I am saying the msq is mostly teleporting around talking to npcs, the once in awhile, is fighting spawned enemies.

the only time two players can play msq together is spawned enemies, and dungeons/trials. Both of those are a comparitively small part of msq.

i believe you enjoy msq, and feel it is the most integral part of ffxiv, what i am telling you is many others dont feel that way, and the longer/more of that they have to do to experience content they want to play, the less likely they are to keep playing. This i think, is most likely with referals, because people being refered expect to play mostly with their friends.

[Penthea]

i believe you enjoy msq, and feel it is the most integral part of ffxiv

That's not an opinion, it is a fact. You said yourself. It's a requirement to engage in nearly everything in the game. It's also the reason given for almost everywhere we can go and everything we can do. If that isn't integral or central, then what is?

what i am telling you is many others dont feel that way, and the longer/more of that they have to do to experience content they want to play, the less likely they are to keep playing.

What you're saying is some players don't feel the msq is central to their enjoyment. That's not the same as the msq not being central to the game.

This i think, is most likely with referals, because people being refered expect to play mostly with their friends.

This really depends on the person. For some people being in the same ls or fc as their buddies and doing content together only every so often is enough. Others at the opposite end of the spectrum want to always be doing content with their friends. There are many varying degrees in between the two as well. And of course for some people this changes day to day with their mood. I know quite a few referral players, some I referred myself, and their social habits differ from one another.

[Awha]

Please tell me how a lvl 20 character would be able to do lvl 30+ dungeons synced with players of similar lvl. I'll say it again; WoW doesn't have a msq but it doesn't automatically mean all the content is unlocked or doable at low lvl. .

They can simply make the content level gated, the quest tracker will still exist so if people want to enjoy the story they can simply follow the quest tracker but at the end of the day they will be able to do the story at their own pace and not the pace the game dictates.

Edit I do understand that they need to make money and know that these changes prob will not happen because of that, but it is interesting none the less.

[Barraind]

Who goes into the game laser-focusing on the endgame without doing research about it first?

Things I ask about MMO's:

Is the crafting system both robust and of actual quality?

Are there raids?

Are the endgame dungeons worth running a lot?



Things I've never had to ask before 14:

Will I be stuck following a linear path that HEAVILY gates me regardless of character/class level (you can be into your mid 60's before you finish the 100 sins of squeenix in ARR) to the point where I cannot experience content unless I spend more than the base game costs to get to the part of the game I like playing?

These people that skip all the MSQ are the same people that complain there isn’t enough content in the game

Funny, because the MSQ ACTIVELY PREVENTS YOU FROM ACCESSING CONTENT.

As in, to access actual content (dungeons, trials, raids, alliance quests, daily quests) you have to get through certain parts of the MSQ or you are completely locked out of those systems regardless of character level. Level 61 and in full stormblood gear but still havent finished a certain part of MSQ? Sorry, you dont have access to reputation farming, alliance raids, 8 man raids, extreme trials, the hunt system, the squadron system, player housing, something im certain im forgetting, and probably feel like theres not enough content in the game.

[Melichoir]

Funny, because the MSQ ACTIVELY PREVENTS YOU FROM ACCESSING CONTENT.

As in, to access actual content (dungeons, trials, raids, alliance quests, daily quests) you have to get through certain parts of the MSQ or you are completely locked out of those systems regardless of character level. Level 61 and in full stormblood gear but still havent finished a certain part of MSQ? Sorry, you dont have access to reputation farming, alliance raids, 8 man raids, extreme trials, the hunt system, the squadron system, player housing, something im certain im forgetting, and probably feel like theres not enough content in the game.

Guess what. MSQ is content. The class you play is content, the quests you take, the places you go. Its all content. Youre not being prevented from content in the sense the MSQ is stripping you from it, but youre being gated. Thats an important distinction because all it means is you cant just have your run of any content. You actually need to do things to access stuff other than just be a high enough level. You need to put in effort and investment. And people tend to forget that MSQ is important because its the central point of FFXIV. The whole game is built around it. FFXIV is a very plot centric mmo that isnt set up in 'episodes'. You want episodic, play WoW. There is a large over arching story, but the way the xpacs and what not operate, you can jump in mid XPac and be up to speed with current events going on in the world because the game doesnt focus to heavily on that overall narrative. It allows you to skip over content. Because you arent important individually. The story just behaves that if you didnt do it, someone else did. Cause the formula for their content is Baddy comes along, horde or alliance encounter it, stuff happens, baddie is resolved with some overarching lore getting slightly pushed forward. But your character specifically isnt tied into that over arching lore unless its the only character you ever make. The game makes it very clear that you are one of many heroes of the horde/alliance, where the bigger plot points are generally resolved by heroes like Thrall or Jaina and youre there to help them. Youre a hero, not the hero.

That isnt the case with FFXIV. There are other adventures, but you are, more or less, the warrior of light (if not one of the very very few WoLs.) Youre actions directly impact the overarching narrative. Its about you, the player. So it makes perfect sense you cant just jump into a dungeon cause your level is high enough.

This isnt even a new concept. In RPGs and MMOs generally, level isnt the only requirement for access to certain content. Where people are getting hosed up over is they think they should have access because of their level rather than realizing that the driving force behind access to certain content is questing. Can we stream line some of that? Possibly. Some of the quests in ARR are a bit overly complex. It would take effort on SEs part to rewrite those quest lines to be more streamlined. Thats a possible solution. But I think this whole notion of "THE MSQ PREVENTS CONTENT ACCESS" comes from a misunderstanding of FFXIV as a whole and what is defined as content. Does it gate people? Sure. Is it preventing access? No, not in the sense that is being argued typically.

[Iscah]

They already confirmed they are going to make some of the ARR MSQ fetch quests into side quests while keeping the main story intact, they said this will probably happen around patch 5.1.

Setting ARR aside bc both sides can agree that its a mess that needs to be worked (not to mention devs have mentioned they are in the process of fixing it)

Do we have a source for this?

As much as the quests could definitely use some streamlining, it's a more intricate process than just cutting out every 'tedious' quest and making it a sidequest. A lot of them move the plot forward - painfully slowly perhaps, but they still need to happen at that point in the story.

No, you don't need to sniff the chocobo, but you do need to get the Doman refugees onto that cart and traveling to Ul'dah. You can't remove that quest, you have to rewrite it to alter the point-by-point objectives.

Going through the entire plot like that would be quite an intensive process.