New Player Experience Sucks! - Impending Expansion Problems

[DBriggs304]

This was pretty much answered back on the first page...

[Jojoya]

One of the points I was making about exp boost. If you need an exp boost to get through the content "quicker" there is a problem with the content. Simple as that.

No, that isn't a problem with the content. That's a problem with the player for wanting to rush through content. Simple as that.

If there wasn't enough content to gain the XP to level up without resorting to a straight up mob grind, then you might have an argument. Fortunately, that's not the case. There's plenty of content in this game that will reward XP and can be done alongside the MSQ, leveling roulette being a good example.

Your issue is you've chosen the wrong game to play. What you need to do is find a game that's already designed the way you want it to be instead of asking for changes to a game that others like but you don't. I hear Blizzard is trying to attract more players to WoW. Try there.

Oh, I wasn't aware that most mechanics aren't introduced during msq dungeons- oh wait.

To be honest, many mechanics aren't introduced during MSQ dungeons. They are introduced in the level 50/60 side content then repeated in the subsequent expansion's MSQ dungeons. Someone who is plowing straight through MSQ without stopping to do raids and EX trials are going to be at a loss on some of them despite people telling them they should already know those mechanics by now.

[Anselmet]

No, that isn't a problem with the content. That's a problem with the player for wanting to rush through content. Simple as that.

If there wasn't enough content to gain the XP to level up without resorting to a straight up mob grind, then you might have an argument. Fortunately, that's not the case. There's plenty of content in this game that will reward XP and can be done alongside the MSQ, leveling roulette being a good example.

Your issue is you've chosen the wrong game to play. What you need to do is find a game that's already designed the way you want it to be instead of asking for changes to a game that others like but you don't. I hear Blizzard is trying to attract more players to WoW. Try there.


To be honest, many mechanics aren't introduced during MSQ dungeons. They are introduced in the level 50/60 side content then repeated in the subsequent expansion's MSQ dungeons. Someone who is plowing straight through MSQ without stopping to do raids and EX trials are going to be at a loss on some of them despite people telling them they should already know those mechanics by now.

I am not claiming that all mechanics originate in the msq. If the mech is brought in on a side dungeon and are repeated in the next expansions msq then clearly the mechanics are being used in the msq. The person's claim is that the msq does nothing to teach people mechanics which is straight manure. Most mechanics are being introduced in the msq that does not mean that it is their debut in the game. My point is that newbies go through dungeons that throw array of mechs at them to the point that they more or less have seen most mechanics (at least on the casual side) once they hit the end of the msq in sb. That does not mean they are experts, it means that they have experienced and started the learning process. That person is claiming otherwise in a lame attempt to demolish the importance of the msq.

[Wynn_Storm]

I am not claiming that all mechanics originate in the msq. If the mech is brought in on a side dungeon and are repeated in the next expansions msq then clearly the mechanics are being used in the msq. The person's claim is that the msq does nothing to teach people mechanics which is straight manure. Most mechanics are being introduced in the msq that does not mean that it is their debut in the game. My point is that newbies go through dungeons that throw array of mechs at them to the point that they more or less have seen most mechanics (at least on the casual side) once they hit the end of the msq in sb. That does not mean they are experts, it means that they have experienced and started the learning process. That person is claiming otherwise in a lame attempt to demolish the importance of the msq.

Lame attempt? Sorry that what i said hurt your little feelings, but its true what i say.

MSQ does not teach you basic mechanics. It doesn't. You can go ahead and keep on thinking it does, but it doesn't.

You learn via high end dungeon content/trials/raids. That is the reason that people at 70 don't know how to do mechanics.

What they SHOULD do, is update the novice training hall to include a tutorial about all the different types of markers for mechanics. Such as the stack or spread.


Honestly though, you post is full of nothing but air, and you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Shougun]

Been fun to see a lot of people talk way past each other lol.

This in some ways reminds me of the accessibility arguments with Dark Souls. With some people refusing to and actively attempting to prevent accessibility additions and others trying to make the game have a super easy mode.

Of course I said reminds me of, not saying it's a perfect parallel. Although evaluating it like that I'd lean towards FFXIV is not a hardcore game and so it should be more mindful of accessibility than a "dark souls" mmorpg. Not that it means giving away relics whenever you heck the bed though.

So how do you propose they help new players?

Free skip potions will be like throwing someone into the deep end who doesn't know how to swim, leveling dungeons are far harsher than any end game dungeons and the potion will still force players to level at least 10 levels going into these.

Streamline msq ok they did that with HW and it had atrocious level jumps at launch(I think there was like 4 lv56 msq quest before the Vault a lv57 dungeon) a bit of padding is good it can help flesh out things for people like me and SE can pace things out more appropriately SB is the best paced .0 for story/level pacing and it still has a few bumps (58-60 range is so fast)

I really can't think what the devs could do here they use so much story yes even from the fetch quests into other parts of the game where they expect you to know about it already that it would probably require a whole redesign of the msq for ARR that i doubt they would do anything about it. The devs are currently in the damned if they do damned if they don't scenario here and it seems the dev's vision is with the damned if they do it crowd so they probably won't bother until it truly starts to affect things later down the line.

I suggested we have a new start option, that OP said might work for them (might as in it was an accepted attempt to solve it, not that it was perfect or flawless or they knew exactly how I'd make the new start).

But I sincerely think its not a bad thing to check more into. We are getting new game+ this means we can experience the starts of the game again already, which is awesome for this idea because it means not only are you making a new option for people who just don't want to deal with the 100+ hours to get to the content they wanted to get to (not everyone feels that way clearly, and its great some people are able to start from the beginning) but also because you're adding a quest chain that everyone can experience.

Thinking of it like a new quest line that means a lot to some new players and is also just a new quest chain for everyone else (neat Ishgard related reward at the end, also maybe a permanent "favored" Aethernet at ishgard).

So at the start of the game you'd get ARR starts at each of the standard GC (the pick your city menu), and then there would be advanced options based on if you own expansions like perhaps with HW/Stormblood you may start at Ishgard that also boosts one of your jobs to X level, story to Y point, and gives you Z gear / gil. This new start covering some of the basic storyline that you need to know not to be confused when let out, some basic mechanic coverings (enemy and self included), and a much greater sense of purpose than just tossing people into the world with a bunch of stuff (skip potion does that). On top of that it can also be a way to add more lore (more ishgard content) and options to the world (like a new GC option, will be freelance in PvP). An aside on GC I'd like if SE can also improve the GC system for players and FC (such that FC find value in increasing their relationships and perhaps players consider swapping more often and ranking up).

A quick not very detailed sketch of what that might be like:

You're wandering the area of Ishgard when an avalanche strikes, you turn towards it in high tier gear appropriate for the job you selected and prepare to strike it down because no avalanche can take you down. Suddenly you're distracted (like the otherworld calling we've been experiencing recently, or something to do with Nidhog's eye) which causes the avalanche to sweep you right down the mountain side and clear off it into an area unexplored to us. After some groggy dragging cutscene to a small little Ishgard hamlet (new to area to us), you are given control to experience this area. To note you're still out of it (amnesia), as you have just fallen off a freaking mountain.

You'll be given some quests and story as you flash back some of your memory (helping the player learn what has happened, some flash backs could be fights for epic teaching too like Nidhog modified a bit), these quests teaching you mechanics of the game at an accelerated rate. At first you might remember your level 30-40 self, but will increase quickly till you reach whatever was the end goal of this start option.

After helping out and learning a bit about the world and your job you get a quest to go to Ishgard, perhaps to join their knights because the village thinks you're so great, after some decent traveling and reaching there you shock the guards as of course these guys recognize you. There they take you to see Aymeric and you end the "hard lock" part of the intro, finishing with some nice tea with him. Aymeric will restore your mount and linkshell/pearls as he found your chocobo and some gear on the mountain side (cutscene of your Hachiko chocobo diligently searching for you, who you remember how to whistle to when seeing again). After the tea you move into the "soft intro".

The soft intro pretty much is open world now but will direct you to do some tasks like experience the Golden Saucer, meet your job teacher, Aymeric would love for you to join their GC and gives you a letter of recommendation (starting rank in Ishgard will be higher when with a letter of recommendation), and do the next MSQ content. The hard lock part of the intro will probably be an hour or two but will teach you much of the basics of yourself, the world, and present it in a way I think could be a fun new take (going from a small village, quickly past some of the more boring 1 1 1 1 combat, and quickly building into visiting the holy epic city Ishgard!), while the soft intro is sort of optional but will ensure a bit of direction to the player who just got released into a huge world. Obviously a big part of the intro is it will "skip" a lot of the story someone might not want to do/do again (while recapping the parts you NEED to know to move forward), to note this doesn't mean it would/have to be skipping everything but would be moving you for example right past all of ARR at minimum.

As the game gets deeper and older there might be multiple intro options, like awaking in some fairy land after being caught baked by light in the other world (shadowbringer universe). At least when the time to catch up gets too large for people who are not interested in the /old/ expansion(s) content (I don't think SE should be trying to get people to skip everything, but there is something to be said when I want to play warcraft 3 but don't want to be told I need to try 1 or 2 first - an argument sort of like that lol).

[Sinte]

As someone who came back form not playing for a long time (a little after pvp came out I quit). I decided to level a new character instead of starting on my 50. 1-50 ARR was pretty boring because I knew it. 50-50 was REALLY boring until the last quest "game of thrones" esque. Heavensward has been really fun, can't speak on stormblood.

TL;DR I'd love to be able to skip the "patch content" story of 50-50 and (i imagine) 60-60. But other than that, the story is fun to go through, and unless you're absolutely wanting to only do endgame (Weird choice for an MMO if that's all you want to do), you really owe it to yourself to go through the good story.

[Anselmet]

MSQ does not teach you basic mechanics.

You learn via high end dungeon content/trials/raids. That is the reason that people at 70 don't know how to do mechanics.

Let me great this straight. New people have to run around 20 different dungeons where they show off different mechanics and new people just drool brain dead and never catch on? Do you hear yourself? Like if being able to do high end content is your standard of knowing mechanics then your argument is even more poor. Does doing high end content make you a better player and teach you to be more weary of mechanics. Yes. But you are being disingenuous if you think that people don't start learning before doing high end content.

Hurt feelings? No. Just poking holes in your argument likes its swiss cheese. But okay new players can't know mechs until they clear some high end content because that totally makes sense. ((most people don't do high end content, most of the game isn't on fire due to this... but okay, okay you clearly are a logical person full of wisdom))

[Wynn_Storm]

Let me great this straight. New people have to run around 20 different dungeons where they show off different mechanics and new people just drool brain dead and never catch on?

That's literally what i am saying because its true. Tough pill to swallow tough guy, but if you play a lot of lvl 70 content you will see people who literally do not understand the basic mechanics.

Does doing high end content make you a better player and teach you to be more weary of mechanics. Yes. But you are being disingenuous if you think that people don't start learning before doing high end content.

I am not being disingenuous, you are just failing to understand the fact that the game doesn't hold your hand and teach you these things. As you get higher and higher some of these mechanics will show in MSQ, but usually after they are presented in side content/ lvl 50/60/70 dungeons.

Hurt feelings? No. Just poking holes in your argument likes its swiss cheese. But okay new players can't know mechs until they clear some high end content because that totally makes sense. ((most people don't do high end content, most of the game isn't on fire due to this... but okay, okay you clearly are a logical person full of wisdom))

Your feelings are obviously hurt from how defensive you are about this. But sure, go ahead and think you are poking holes in my argument. And i never said i was full of wisdom but thanks for the compliment.

[van_arn]

Let me great this straight. New people have to run around 20 different dungeons where they show off different mechanics and new people just drool brain dead and never catch on? Do you hear yourself? Like if being able to do high end content is your standard of knowing mechanics then your argument is even more poor. Does doing high end content make you a better player and teach you to be more weary of mechanics. Yes. But you are being disingenuous if you think that people don't start learning before doing high end content.

Hurt feelings? No. Just poking holes in your argument likes its swiss cheese. But okay new players can't know mechs until they clear some high end content because that totally makes sense. ((most people don't do high end content, most of the game isn't on fire due to this... but okay, okay you clearly are a logical person full of wisdom))

I once knew a black mage that made it all the way to Stormblood, without a skip, only for them to give up on Stormblood and roll an alt because the open world mobs were "too hard."

Just about every time a solo instance fight is released in the MSQ there's a crowd of people on the forums complaining that a 4 button fight is too hard: see, the Burn/4.5 pt 2. Heck, I saw complaints from people with multiple 70s that the XV crossover event was too hard, and that had stuff in it anyone that's cleared Stormblood should know already.

Look, I find these failures absolutely hilarious-- but it really goes to show how bad the MSQ as a whole is at teaching players. If the MSQ did this job, these people would've hit a brick wall long before these issues arise. If the MSQ were intended to teach, then solo fights would not offer echo.

Heck, take any df group after 4.0 and you'll probably spot someone that ignored every lesson Stormblood attempted to teach, in dungeons or in solo fights.

PS- when I took that blm through FSOF they died 16 times in one run. Current witnessed high score.

[Mrcs5]

That's literally what i am saying because its true. Tough pill to swallow tough guy, but if you play a lot of lvl 70 content you will see people who literally do not understand the basic mechanics.



I am not being disingenuous, you are just failing to understand the fact that the game doesn't hold your hand and teach you these things. As you get higher and higher some of these mechanics will show in MSQ, but usually after they are presented in side content/ lvl 50/60/70 dungeons.



Your feelings are obviously hurt from how defensive you are about this. But sure, go ahead and think you are poking holes in my argument. And i never said i was full of wisdom but thanks for the compliment.

Listen Wynn, What you fail to understand is how the game is generally designed. As a lower level player you go through content and you're basically gleaming the aspects of the game you enjoy more than the rest. If you enjoy a story rich experience? Good on you! watch each cut-scene with precise detail and do what ever side quests you find interesting. Heard that there's a golden saucer and are interested in mini games? your time in the game time is free, as long as you have the gil go and have fun. What's not okay is when you expect the average newer player to disregard what they enjoy and make the overall aspects of the game that they might not enjoy more difficult to trek through so they "Learn the mechanics". Maybe Bobby Jones is a simple guy and every now and then a boss or dungeon gives him some trouble. Let him enjoy having simple leveling/story/minigames content. FF14 has quite a lenient difficulty curve throughout the levels and I'll admit a lot of the earlier level content is dry, that doesn't mean you make a lot of the "Basic Mechanics" More pronounced than they need to be to "Make them better at the game". Personally I'll only play when there's content available that doesn't sum up to "Oh hey! theres new gear 2 item-level stronger than my current gear, time to grind for the next three weeks to get the full set and then rinse and repeat the next patch" By the end of it you as an toxic elitist will have maybe 2-4% more stats than the casual that doesn't spam endgame content. Newer/Casual players play the game to enjoy the parts of it they enjoy. They don't have to be your ideal gamer who devotes as much time as you do. Let them make mistakes, let them be inexperienced, let them play the game the way they want to play it.