Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Shura]

Entitlement aside, pretty sure kicking someone because they don't speed run counts as harassment and is report-able. whereas you can't report someone if they don't speed run. So as far as the game rules go, Tanks decide the pace of the dungeon; if you kick them because they don't play the way you want, you risk having a mark against you if you are reported.

[Veis_Alveare]

Entitlement aside, pretty sure kicking someone because they don't speed run counts as harassment and is report-able. whereas you can't report someone if they don't speed run. So as far as the game rules go, Tanks decide the pace of the dungeon; if you kick them because they don't play the way you want, you risk having a mark against you if you are reported.

This is not true.

Kicking someone under the "differing playstyles" umbrella covers both of these options equally as long as you weren't abusive in your request for them to adjust in the first place.

[Feidam]

This is not true.

Kicking someone under the "differing playstyles" umbrella covers both of these options equally as long as you weren't abusive in your request for them to adjust in the first place.

Maybe. Only GM responses we have are prior to the change in the rules. So while it’s possible you are still right it’s also possible you are wrong with the new rules. Hopefully something will happen soon that can put this to rest.

[van_arn]

Maybe. Only GM responses we have are prior to the change in the rules. So while it’s possible you are still right it’s also possible you are wrong with the new rules. Hopefully something will happen soon that can put this to rest.

The fact that we have multiple statements before the change, and no response after the change means -- for now, and until stated otherwise, they see no need to issue another statement.

There's no "maybe it's different" if they've issued statements in the past.

[Halivel]

The tank refused, so the three removed the tank from the group.

If party wants to set the rules - party goes fully premade in the first place. You didn't go fully premade? Then there is no rules and outside of situations when last person is an absolute trash player kicking them from the dungeon because they didn't play as you want is just ridiculous.

[van_arn]

If party wants to set the rules - party goes fully premade in the first place. You didn't go fully premade? Then there is no rules and outside of situations when last person is an absolute trash player kicking them from the dungeon because they didn't play as you want is just ridiculous.

If you don't want to listen to the people you're matched with, don't use duty finder. That's more than fair.

If you're obstinate, the people you're matched with can decide to remove you. This is also more than fair.

The reverse is also true: if a tank decides on small pulls and everyone is going along with it except one dps that refuses to stop pulling adds, don't cause drama and put up a vote to kick that dps.

Doing very stupid things like just watching someone die, or shirking a pack onto them is utterly pointless when you can just kick.

[Feidam]

The fact that we have multiple statements before the change, and no response after the change means -- for now, and until stated otherwise, they see no need to issue another statement.

There's no "maybe it's different" if they've issued statements in the past.

Not really. I mean it took a long time to get even those responses. And yes there is a maybe it is different when they have had a TOS change that specially adds language about compelling play styles and further laid out more examples of inappropriate behavior after those other statements were made.

On a side note in my experience since the TOS I have run into way less people behaving badly. Poor behavior really wasn’t the norm before but you’d see more often. I think the new TOS did help alleviate that some.

[van_arn]

Not really. I mean it took a long time to get even those responses. And yes there is a maybe it is different when they have had a TOS change that specially adds language about compelling play styles and further laid out more examples of inappropriate behavior after those other statements were made.

On a side note in my experience since the TOS I have run into way less people behaving badly. Poor behavior really wasn’t the norm before but you’d see more often. I think the new TOS did help alleviate that some.

It's very nice you feel that way, but the fact remains statements have already been made, and they have said nothing since the supposed changes.

It naturally follows that there are no updates, and until there is another statement to counter what we already have been explicitly told about kicks there's no reason to believe it's any different now.

[Sylve]

Delete Trash packs from dungeons.
Replace them with minibosses. Disperse Tome rewards and loot through the minibosses.
Give them mechanics and a health pool that cant be mass pulled efficiently.

I detest mass pulling. I 'grew up' Tanking old school MMOs, where a single add could wipe the party in a dungeon.
The "Efficiency is everything" crowd basically blackmail Tanks, essentially saying 'Tank it our way or we kick'. Awfully similar to the 'Do dps as Healer or we kick' argument. Both boil down to wanting shave a minute or two off the run.

The simplest solution to end the debate is as above. Though I'm also partial to target capping and/or nerfing the hell out of AoE damage.

Mass pulling is a result of overgearing. Its not a 'playstyle'. A playstyle difference would be RP vs non RP. Or someone not using a Job Crystal because they like the Class more. Or using an alternative boss strategy that is mutually exclusive.
Small pulls slightly slow down the run of overgeared players.

Pretty sure if you told a GM "We kicked him because we calculated that this run would take 17 minutes instead of 15 minutes at the current pace", you'd find yourself in hot water.
If mass pulling was the "correct" way to play in a Dungeon, those trash packs you're pulling into each other would all be linked from the start. They're not, So the design intent was one pack at a time.

TL;DR, If you hit Duty Finder with randos, you should be adapting to however the randos are playing. Be it small pulls, a healer not doing DPS or a DPS not being very good. Accept that a DF run will very likely not be a speedrun the moment you add a random to your party.

[HarryTipper]

TL;DR, If you hit Duty Finder with randos, you should be adapting to however the randos are playing.

This can be applied in both ways. In favor of those that want to speedrun and those who don't want to.
And we are right back to square one.