Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Voltyblast]

I'll give you some real truth. Some of these other players don't raid and don't main all 3 roles like I do. Regardless of what anyone says. A tank can set pace but isn't anymore important than anyother role. Everyone is equal but tank and healers have alot to deal with in a raid. It's all about team work. If anyone tells you that all the roles are not equal then there stupid. Without enough dps you wipe without a healer everyone dies, without a tank everyone dies. It's all about equal team work.

I want to say something about teamwork: yes the game is about team work, that's fact, however the problem is that unless you raid the only other content you get to do is dungeons, and dungeons are ludicrous easy that you can practically clear them without optimal dps - you can even clear dungeons without dps: tanks can do enough damage! - so the fact that all roles are equals is only valid in raids and other similar types of content. If dungeons actually challenged groups better then I could say that you're right but you can just rush through dungeons with such easy that equality goes right of the window. But if you raid or do 8 man content that is harder then yes, it's important to have equal responsibilities but how much of the player base does this kind of content? 1%? 10%?

It's kind of why we need more midcore content but now I digress.

[Fland]

However considering I got kicked for lesser things such as "not getting aggro within 0,00001 seconds", showing "how great" this community can be, I don't feel bad if I'm entitled or become harsh: in my world hate begets hate and if people don't want to settle down and have a discussion with me and just have me kicked because I decided to not pull a single mob or because I'm not worthy of their attention, well, then I just have to kick back and show that until the game fixes the tank's lacking population, you are going to deal with MY ways and that's final.

I didn't ask for these 20 minutes to turn into a full-blown war but they asked for it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is why we can't have nice things.

[llnoopell]

I want to say something about teamwork: yes the game is about team work, that's fact, however the problem is that unless you raid the only other content you get to do is dungeons, and dungeons are ludicrous easy that you can practically clear them without optimal dps - you can even clear dungeons without dps: tanks can do enough damage! - so the fact that all roles are equals is only valid in raids and other similar types of content. If dungeons actually challenged groups better then I could say that you're right but you can just rush through dungeons with such easy that equality goes right of the window. But if you raid or do 8 man content that is harder then yes, it's important to have equal responsibilities but how much of the player base does this kind of content? 1%? 10%?

It's kind of why we need more midcore content but now I digress.

(0)
I think there's a misunderstanding in your ways. Yea tank population is low but doesn't mean you have to have a bad attitude towards it (: I main all 3 roles and could care less if a tank misses aggro because DPS well DPS as a tank is pulling Is a no-no. Tanking is easy, dps is easy and healing is easy. No one should act shitty to anyone. It's all about team work.
And the real issue is people's toxic attitudes towards everything and anything " everyone thinks there the best" that's stupid and often they get showed up ALOT. And no one should be entitled to anything there is a priority to certain jobs but no entitlement. That's selfish and unbecoming.

[Lilseph]

Thats the point you may have players that give more damage than you and find your rotation not that optimal but average or bellow average and exclude you.
Since not all players submit their dps parse logs.

That's not how it works.

You have a lot of theorycrafting and experimentation going on in the background. There are plenty of networking involved both in-game communities, forum boards, Discord servers that break the damage formulas down, along with their stats and expose them to some field action. There's nothing subjective here, numbers don't lie. You have set combos that must be executed in a row, and how you manage the timers from the debuffs/buffs and dots they provide aligned with your party's buff, it's how you reach a peak in performance. The combos can vary from encounter to encounter and, along with their openers. You have thousand of thousand of player samples in FFLogs, from all kind of content and they are VERY detailed on almost everything. Then again, I don't expect you to ace this rotation, it requires a lot of practice and commitment for most jobs, but you can use it as a template to improve yourself. While it may not be optimal, DPS wise, they can be on a very acceptable level based on your capabilities, ping, reflexes, etc.

It's not possible to disregard the effort of hundred of players because we feel it's subjective. Again: Math doesn't lie. If you don't want to follow it, that's fine, you do you, but that's how we define what rotation is superior over the other.

Some did unfortunately also those that preach etiquette were the 1st to give the exact opposite example in that post you mentioned previously.

I can't speak for them, I'm my own individual, and they are hardly a majority. Like here, should I assume that every casual is completely condescending, sarcastic and toxic because they demonize optimization?

But again what is "acceptable level" and what conditions do you take in consideration to formulate such "acceptable" preformance for one role, if the company provides you the freedom to play as you can.

Sure thing, and you'll see it's not too hard to accomplish:

>Dungeons:
-DPS using their AoE moves and utility when needed.
-Healer balancing healing and DPSing.
-Tanks pulling as much as they can handle and managing their cooldowns.

If these conditions are met, I'd hardly say anything. Most of the time I bite the bullet, but I'm not pleased. I would never ever vote kick anyone for not doing any of the above, I'd most likely leave if the environment doesn't get too favorable, as my playtime doesn't resolve around DF. I can do other stuff until the penalty wears off. The one time I'd votekick is if one of the players there is constanly AFK or auto-attacking. Again, I'd inquiry first to see if they have an issue beforehand. (Phone, someone ringed the door bell, pet brioke someting, baby crying, etc). I don't think I'm that unreasonable.

It is not about meming is about having a notion that players are different and the same way you judge one player for having a less good day and try to preform one task in game that doesn't end well the same will happen to you if something that unfortunately might not be under anyone control happen to you in the future, and you have the misfortune to pass to a similar situation.

Although I've seen you memeing in a previous discussion mocking their approach to the content. I also know I'm not immune to the same treatment, if I find a group that is not compatible with my playstyle, I'll have to face the consequences and kindly bow out. I know my place.

[Voltyblast]

(0)
I think there's a misunderstanding in your ways. Yea tank population is low but doesn't mean you have to have a bad attitude towards it (: I main all 3 roles and could care less if a tank misses aggro because DPS well DPS as a tank is pulling Is a no-no. Tanking is easy, dps is easy and healing is easy. No one should act shitty to anyone. It's all about team work.
And the real issue is people's toxic attitudes towards everything and anything " everyone thinks there the best" that's stupid and often they get showed up ALOT. And no one should be entitled to anything there is a priority to certain jobs but no entitlement. That's selfish and unbecoming.

You are right about not needing to have a bad attitude, but it's not my fault if others behave badly when I try to make things work: I got kicked for all sorts of reasons, from disagreeing with a group to literally not aggroing a boss with a normal 3-combo, as well as getting death threats for other reasons such as disliking stuff other likes. Thing is, behave bad and I'll get bad too, I'm not going to stay there and getting kicked because of your ego: I just want to do my run, getting my 90 tomes per day, and leave: if they want things to go bad because they can't stand a mistake from time to time, don't expect me to be lenient.

And honestly I'm not the best tank either: I don't have BiS gear, I don't have crafted gear either, I'm pretty average because I don't care about being the best: I just care about doing my job and moving on. Am I entitled? Just a bit really, although it's not like go around and say "hey, get me as tank, cuz I'm the best": I just do my queues and get things over quickly because I'm a tank.
Tanks ARE a really small minority and this is why I do the major content with a tank because that's, for me, the only way to do stuff done (and I don't like 30 minutes as a dps). However here's the difference: I don't like being entitled, I wish we had more tanks so that I could play my dps, I wish tanks healers and dps were equal in sizes but the truth is they aren't, so tanks will have some sort of benefits above the other 2 roles. This is why dps queues are above 30 minutes and why healers don't often get their AiN buff in roulettes. As a tank I can do 5 dungeons in an hour but as a dps I can barely do one.

But if me playing a tank is not enough and you want to add salt to injury, say that I suck because boohoo we lost 30 seconds more in a boss, or that a boss is not dying fast enough because my dps is lacking (true story on this one), of course I'm going to get mad at you, especially when I try to be nice and all you do is bash on my head! I try to be nice but expect some backlash if you just think that being mean to me helps. Spoilers: it doesn't.

I swear to you, I try HARD to be nice with my team: I always try to be patient with my team, I even teach tactics when they forget, I make sure to tell what to do or how to make a better rotation especially since I'm a Mentor (even though now FFXIV can punish you so woops, not anymore), I try my damn best to get these 20 minutes done as smooth as possible and get our job done because I have a life to care about, I don't have the mental or physical energy to care about ingame drama, I don't have enough cares in the world to care if the dungeon goes slow or if the dps isn't enough or we are supposed to get it done in 20 minutes, I don't have enough time to THINK about caring about why the dungeons or why someone doesn't like someone or if someone hates me because I dislike their precious game's story or raiding or characters. All I want is my dungeon run to get done, just like the other 3 members of the party, and if this means requires me to help them then sure, I have absolutely no problems and I'm glad I could help.

But if that's not enough, then yes, I am going to be mean and react accordingly: I play games to relax, not to get into fights. I DON'T WANT to fight, but I will if I must.
Although I'm reaching that age and point where I don't care about fighting anymore, so I just decided to just not bother with the new expansion and quit the game. My health will at least recover.

This is why we can't have nice things.

I can only say this.

I didn't ask for these 20 minutes to turn into a full-blown war but they asked for it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[SamotoZama]

This is a tricky one. Basically, most people think they are entitled.

I have seen both sides where people think they have all the power.
The Tank won't pull if someone isn't doing what they want.
The Healer won't heal if the Tank isn't pulling what they want.

I am not suggesting that most people behave this way. But, in my opinion, there isn't really an answer to your question of Tank vs Group Entitlement, because both tend to think they are entitled.

[cicatriz313]

This is a tricky one. Basically, most people think they are entitled.

I have seen both sides where people think they have all the power.
The Tank won't pull if someone isn't doing what they want.
The Healer won't heal if the Tank isn't pulling what they want.

I am not suggesting that most people behave this way. But, in my opinion, there isn't really an answer to your question of Tank vs Group Entitlement, because both tend to think they are entitled.

Lol preach. Although as the above poster shows, some tanks really think they are entitled to something more just because they choose to play a role that is low pop. And that is precisely the type of tank I imagine got booted in the ops situation.

[ReiMakoto]

Out the gate i am going to tell you leveling dungeons are no different than any other dungeon for some one at ilevel. People at minimum ilevel are usually going to be the ones afraid of big pulls. People at ilevel will be grouped with people not at ilevel.

2nd what i am telling you is that your standard of what is basic competence is subjective, and based on an educated guess based on our other conversations And your profile, your subjective standard is probably high.

you have like 17 level 70 charachters, you find dungeons to be extremely easy throw away content, you love to focus primarily on high end raids. If you are used to savage content, you are probably of a mindstate that prefers pushing limits, over merely passing. Your general mindstate, and way of thinking about and interacting with this game is probably only a representation of how 5% or less see and interact with the game.

you are unlikely to have a fair subjective view of what a passing grade on a basic dungeon is.


i would say SE considers a passing grade on a dungeon to be 20-25 minutes with less than 2 wipes. My guess is for you, a passing grade would be 12-17 minutes with zero wipes.

single pull can fall within 25 minute runs, and zero wipes

Leveling dungeons arnt the same as all the other ones at ilvl though, especially some of the pre 50 dungeons, theres no gating on pulls at all so even at highest ilvl i wouldnt reccommend mass pulling. Everything that does have gating should at least be attempted to be pulled to the wall. As ive said before, my standards arn't high for dungeons, i just want dps to aoe, tanks to pulls as much as they can (determined by pulling everything you can im gated pull dungeons, and if you die, trying again with less), and healers as least trying to do some damage while keeping the tank alive. Communication is key in these situations.

Also i love how youre telling me how i think about things, I guess youre just a master person reader.

[Granyala]

Hell, this just happened to me the other night in Temple of the Fist - a level 70 dungeon. This DRK pulled wall to wall after the second boss, remained in DPS stance, and only used Living Dead.

Yeah, some pulls won't work w/o tank CDs. Many a tank doesn't have the skill to use them, which is why I never put pressure on a tank if he pulls slow.
That being said: I did heal that pull a few times and it is the only pull I can remember in Stormbloods dungeons that is actually critical. 2 big ones + all of them dogs can be a bit much, esp since the scaling in there is rather aggressive.

[Drayce1]

Every run I do, I generally set the pace based on what the healer is wearing, and I always, always go pld due to having the best survivability with mitigation and clemency. If the healer is well geared I pull wall to wall, if healer is undergeared, ill pull one group, after one or two dies, I grab the next. If dps or healer gets impatient and starts pulling mobs over, I simply grab them, and will only berate the puller and initiate vote kick if we wipe. So far, I had no issue, save for one underperforming whm who screamed at me to stop using clemency, spite she wasnt even holy bombing....sighs.