Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[SenorPatty]

I hope you mean this sarcastic because thats precisely what games are supposed to be. A way to escape reality and relax your mind. The moment games become like a job what is the point. You might as well focus on your real job and earn real money.

Not all games. Some games aim to make you have the chillest time in the world. Others are meant to keep you at the edge of your seat. A good example of that are competitive online sports/shooting games. They're typically fun and engaging but hardly what I'd call relaxing.

[Physic]

We arn't talking about hyper efficiency, we're talking about basic competence in pressing your aoe buttons and pulling big, I don't give a damn about the numbers you're putting out so long as you're actually trying. I know I never would have gotten good at this game without advice from vets in dungeons either. Also we've spoken to you before about this, outside of a leveling dungeon, large pulls are always just objectively better, and so is pressing your aoe when there's 3+ targets, its not about ultra high efficiency, its about basic competence.

Out the gate i am going to tell you leveling dungeons are no different than any other dungeon for some one at ilevel. People at minimum ilevel are usually going to be the ones afraid of big pulls. People at ilevel will be grouped with people not at ilevel.

2nd what i am telling you is that your standard of what is basic competence is subjective, and based on an educated guess based on our other conversations And your profile, your subjective standard is probably high.

you have like 17 level 70 charachters, you find dungeons to be extremely easy throw away content, you love to focus primarily on high end raids. If you are used to savage content, you are probably of a mindstate that prefers pushing limits, over merely passing. Your general mindstate, and way of thinking about and interacting with this game is probably only a representation of how 5% or less see and interact with the game.

you are unlikely to have a fair subjective view of what a passing grade on a basic dungeon is.


i would say SE considers a passing grade on a dungeon to be 20-25 minutes with less than 2 wipes. My guess is for you, a passing grade would be 12-17 minutes with zero wipes.

single pull can fall within 25 minute runs, and zero wipes

[Feidam]

You are inherently getting more damage from large pulls though. That's how aoe works. If you hit 3 monsters for 200 potency each in an aoe, if you add more monsters to that with a larger pull, even if it does the 50% 30% etc thing some aoe does now, it will still be more damage per gcd. This will be even more true if say the single pull is 3 mobs and some people are doing single target rotations because it's better for their job. This is more damage for tanks, healers (if they know how to use their ogcds), and dps.

It is. But when looking at time to kill if the time still takes longer than you could of killed 3 separate packs then it is a net loss in efficiency. It also assumes that the aoes are hitting all targets and we know that does not always happen. So again it is not a one size fits all scenario. I have no problem with large pulls or smalls. Making things go boom is what I do unless I am healing. We are talking about the aggressive behavior that comes from some players because optimal isn’t happening and treating people like robots. You can not ignore the human component. Even the best screw up.

[cicatriz313]

SE would consider anything okay as long as people are playing the game. Like asking people to know that aoes are good in large groups shouldn't be a toxic elitist 5% of the population kind of thing. It should be common knowledge at level 70 at the least. It's weird to me how people are defending poor play as if it's the norm when most runs I've seen since like late 2.x have been pull big and aoe. Enough so that people complain about how every dungeon is the same situation. So if the norm is to do large pulls and someone refuses to do the norm are they not holding back other people?

It is. But when looking at time to kill if the time still takes longer than you could of killed 3 separate packs then it is a net loss in efficiency. It also assumes that the aoes are hitting all targets and we know that does not always happen. So again it is not a one size fits all scenario. I have no problem with large pulls or smalls. Making things go boom is what I do unless I am healing. We are talking about the aggressive behavior that comes from some players because optimal isn’t happening and treating people like robots. You can not ignore the human component. Even the best screw up.

Well that's a completely different argument than you were making before lol. You said specifically you were not getting more damage in potency which... you are. No matter how you look at it. And is it possible for large groups to die slower than 3 separate pulls? There's a chance, sure. But I would argue in MOST cases, like 95+% of cases it's significantly faster to kill in a large group because every gcd you're spending is hitting that many more mobs, and then you have to worry about ramp up time for a lot of jobs. Then you take into account things like blood accumulation on drk, shield swipe on pld, being able to spend all your ogcds in one pull rather than waiting between 3 pulls etc. There are way more reasons to do large pulls when adequately geared than there is not to. That's why it's the norm. Also if you're betting on people to screw up, efficiency isn't even part of the discussion.

[Melichoir]

The weakest Roll sets the pace.

Pretty much, if your tank is undergeared/experience, youre more likely to wipe forcing said tank to pull big cause theyll die (even with good healers and DPS.) Smaller more controlled pulls will net you faster runs.

If the healer is undergeared/inexperienced, tank is gonna likely die more often, resulting in wipes and slowing you down.

If the DPS are inexperienced or undergeared, you may not have the DPS to burn down large pulls and suffer a wipe from the fight going on to long.


The idea that any one roll controls the entirety of the pacing is silly. However, it is not up for the group to just decide despite a role. It boils down to seeing whos up to par and whos not, and adjusting the speed as a group. If everyone is geared and good to go, pull fast, hard, and big. If people are inexperienced or undergeared, slow and steady is the pace. Adjust accordingly and find the right pace for the group.

[Feidam]

SE would consider anything okay as long as people are playing the game. Like asking people to know that aoes are good in large groups shouldn't be a toxic elitist 5% of the population kind of thing. It should be common knowledge at level 70 at the least. It's weird to me how people are defending poor play as if it's the norm when most runs I've seen since like late 2.x have been pull big and aoe. Enough so that people complain about how every dungeon is the same situation. So if the norm is to do large pulls and someone refuses to do the norm are they not holding back other people?

Having expectations isn’t elitist. How you behave with those expectations is what becomes elitist and toxic. There are and will be below average players always. They however should not be mistreat in the base content. As we hit extremes and savage etc then we can weed people out. Maybe what we need are extreme lvl dungeons! Those could be fun.

[AnnaRosa]

i would say SE considers a passing grade on a dungeon to be 20-25 minutes with less than 2 wipes. My guess is for you, a passing grade would be 12-17 minutes with zero wipes.

single pull can fall within 25 minute runs, and zero wipes

Actually did read one article about one research made by Dr Alejandro Lleras from the University of Illinois that could prove our brain can not be truly focused in one single task for long period which comes to confirm the Pomodoro technique from Frascenco Cirillo to set a timer for one task in order for a better productive time being that time 30 minutes with 5 minutes break for even work and study.

Of course the Pomodoro technique is more developed because it involve to discover the physical and mental work for each different person preform the same task in a per-determined time (25 minutes).

Amazing now you mentioned even at that SE had the courtesy to help their players.

[Physic]

SE would consider anything okay as long as people are playing the game. Like asking people to know that aoes are good in large groups shouldn't be a toxic elitist 5% of the population kind of thing. It should be common knowledge at level 70 at the least. It's weird to me how people are defending poor play as if it's the norm when most runs I've seen since like late 2.x have been pull big and aoe. Enough so that people complain about how every dungeon is the same situation. So if the norm is to do large pulls and someone refuses to do the norm are they not holding back other people?

kicking should not be based on the meta, it should be based on edge cases. You should not be kicking people for being just below average. My 5% comment had nothing to do with toxicity, it has to do with subjectivity and expectation. I'm saying, i am a big guy, how easy i think it is to open a jar is probably not the same as 12 year old girl. People seem to forget that kicking people is a punishment. You shouldnt be punishing people for being average.

[cicatriz313]

Having expectations isn’t elitist. How you behave with those expectations is what becomes elitist and toxic. There are and will be below average players always. They however should not be mistreat in the base content. As we hit extremes and savage etc then we can weed people out. Maybe what we need are extreme lvl dungeons! Those could be fun.

I still say toxic is subjective, as this thread shows people think asking people to do more is toxic, and people think not doing more is toxic. So is it toxic to queue up in dungeons knowing full well you don't care about how you play? Is it toxic to be a "you don't play my sub" type user? Or is it only toxic to be someone who kicks said user?

kicking should not be based on the meta, it should be based on edge cases. You should not be kicking people for being just below average. My 5% comment had nothing to do with toxicity, it has to do with subjectivity and expectation. I'm saying, i am a big guy, how easy i think it is to open a jar is probably not the same as 12 year old girl. People seem to forget that kicking people is a punishment. You shouldnt be punishing people for being average.

Someone earlier threw out the GM's response about kicking based on "differences in playstyle" being a perfectly good reason for kicking. So if a GM says so...

[Feidam]

I still say toxic is subjective, as this thread shows people think asking people to do more is toxic, and people think not doing more is toxic. So is it toxic to queue up in dungeons knowing full well you don't care about how you play? Is it toxic to be a "you don't play my sub" type user? Or is it only toxic to be someone who kicks said user?

Well asking to do more can be toxic. It all depends on the delivery and they way you ask. Asking itself is not toxic. Playing suboptimal is not toxic and If the dungeon clears for basic content honestly they succeeded. The base content is there for the average or lower average players so honestly that is where your expectations should be and you can control your behaviors from there. Also if a player starts doing the you don’t pay sub bit they are every ounce of toxic as others. Get through the dungeon blacklist and move on. We are talking about people kicking people in base content instead of getting through it and blacklisting. This isn’t an all or none. There is toxicity across the spectrum. AnOther option is create a premade if you have to be optimal at all times. That solves the entire issue. SE purposefully set the bar low for base content and you will get players that are suboptimal and they have every right to be in that content as it is the level designed for them.

I am really liking the idea of extreme level 4 man dungeons so those that want more optimal play can go there. I know I would play those.