Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[cicatriz313]

SE would consider anything okay as long as people are playing the game. Like asking people to know that aoes are good in large groups shouldn't be a toxic elitist 5% of the population kind of thing. It should be common knowledge at level 70 at the least. It's weird to me how people are defending poor play as if it's the norm when most runs I've seen since like late 2.x have been pull big and aoe. Enough so that people complain about how every dungeon is the same situation. So if the norm is to do large pulls and someone refuses to do the norm are they not holding back other people?

It is. But when looking at time to kill if the time still takes longer than you could of killed 3 separate packs then it is a net loss in efficiency. It also assumes that the aoes are hitting all targets and we know that does not always happen. So again it is not a one size fits all scenario. I have no problem with large pulls or smalls. Making things go boom is what I do unless I am healing. We are talking about the aggressive behavior that comes from some players because optimal isn’t happening and treating people like robots. You can not ignore the human component. Even the best screw up.

Well that's a completely different argument than you were making before lol. You said specifically you were not getting more damage in potency which... you are. No matter how you look at it. And is it possible for large groups to die slower than 3 separate pulls? There's a chance, sure. But I would argue in MOST cases, like 95+% of cases it's significantly faster to kill in a large group because every gcd you're spending is hitting that many more mobs, and then you have to worry about ramp up time for a lot of jobs. Then you take into account things like blood accumulation on drk, shield swipe on pld, being able to spend all your ogcds in one pull rather than waiting between 3 pulls etc. There are way more reasons to do large pulls when adequately geared than there is not to. That's why it's the norm. Also if you're betting on people to screw up, efficiency isn't even part of the discussion.

[Feidam]

SE would consider anything okay as long as people are playing the game. Like asking people to know that aoes are good in large groups shouldn't be a toxic elitist 5% of the population kind of thing. It should be common knowledge at level 70 at the least. It's weird to me how people are defending poor play as if it's the norm when most runs I've seen since like late 2.x have been pull big and aoe. Enough so that people complain about how every dungeon is the same situation. So if the norm is to do large pulls and someone refuses to do the norm are they not holding back other people?

Having expectations isn’t elitist. How you behave with those expectations is what becomes elitist and toxic. There are and will be below average players always. They however should not be mistreat in the base content. As we hit extremes and savage etc then we can weed people out. Maybe what we need are extreme lvl dungeons! Those could be fun.

[cicatriz313]

Having expectations isn’t elitist. How you behave with those expectations is what becomes elitist and toxic. There are and will be below average players always. They however should not be mistreat in the base content. As we hit extremes and savage etc then we can weed people out. Maybe what we need are extreme lvl dungeons! Those could be fun.

I still say toxic is subjective, as this thread shows people think asking people to do more is toxic, and people think not doing more is toxic. So is it toxic to queue up in dungeons knowing full well you don't care about how you play? Is it toxic to be a "you don't play my sub" type user? Or is it only toxic to be someone who kicks said user?

kicking should not be based on the meta, it should be based on edge cases. You should not be kicking people for being just below average. My 5% comment had nothing to do with toxicity, it has to do with subjectivity and expectation. I'm saying, i am a big guy, how easy i think it is to open a jar is probably not the same as 12 year old girl. People seem to forget that kicking people is a punishment. You shouldnt be punishing people for being average.

Someone earlier threw out the GM's response about kicking based on "differences in playstyle" being a perfectly good reason for kicking. So if a GM says so...

[Feidam]

I still say toxic is subjective, as this thread shows people think asking people to do more is toxic, and people think not doing more is toxic. So is it toxic to queue up in dungeons knowing full well you don't care about how you play? Is it toxic to be a "you don't play my sub" type user? Or is it only toxic to be someone who kicks said user?

Well asking to do more can be toxic. It all depends on the delivery and they way you ask. Asking itself is not toxic. Playing suboptimal is not toxic and If the dungeon clears for basic content honestly they succeeded. The base content is there for the average or lower average players so honestly that is where your expectations should be and you can control your behaviors from there. Also if a player starts doing the you don’t pay sub bit they are every ounce of toxic as others. Get through the dungeon blacklist and move on. We are talking about people kicking people in base content instead of getting through it and blacklisting. This isn’t an all or none. There is toxicity across the spectrum. AnOther option is create a premade if you have to be optimal at all times. That solves the entire issue. SE purposefully set the bar low for base content and you will get players that are suboptimal and they have every right to be in that content as it is the level designed for them.

I am really liking the idea of extreme level 4 man dungeons so those that want more optimal play can go there. I know I would play those.

[cicatriz313]

Well asking to do more can be toxic. It all depends on the delivery and they way you are ask. Asking itself is not toxic. Playing suboptimal is not toxic and If the dungeon clears for basic content honestly they succeeded. The base content is there for the average or lower average players so honestly that is where your expectations should be and you can control your behaviors from there. Also if a player starts doing the you don’t pay sub bit they are every ounce of toxic as others. Get through the dungeon blacklist and move on. We are talking about people kicking people in base content instead of getting through it and blacklisting. This isn’t an all or none. There is toxicity across the spectrum. AnOther option is create a premade if you have to be optimal at all times. That solves the entire issue. SE purposefully set the bar low for base content and you will get players that are suboptimal and they have every right to be in that content as it is the level designed for them.

I am really liking the idea of extreme level 4 man dungeons so those that want more optimal play can go there.

Well, I respect your opinion, and I hope people like you will be there to carry all the players who will get booted for "differences in playstyle" because if I see anyone mention "don't play my sub", they're getting a kick. I'm honestly under the impression that a tank who refuses to pull large when a group expresses confidence in the party's ability to do so, is the type of player who refuses to change and would say that type of stuff. I mean, of course the bar is set low to allow players to get through the game, it allows SE to keep raking in the dough, but if I have the tools to make MY experience better, and the rest of the party agrees, I don't think it's toxic to do so.

i havent seen the context of this response, but if a gm says something that can have no objective meaning, they are basically just telling people they will use their own judgement for any given situation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...fore_the_last/
It reads to me that people have the right to kick people for other reasons than are listed and they don't constitute a breach of rules. Seems pretty clear and not a "judgement basis" to me, at least until we see otherwise from a GM response I'll be conducting myself according to what I've read and seen.

[Feidam]

Well, I respect your opinion, and I hope people like you will be there to carry all the players who will get booted for "differences in playstyle" because if I see anyone mention "don't play my sub", they're getting a kick. I'm honestly under the impression that a tank who refuses to pull large when a group expresses confidence in the party's ability to do so, is the type of player who refuses to change and would say that type of stuff. I mean, of course the bar is set low to allow players to get through the game, it allows SE to keep raking in the dough, but if I have the tools to make MY experience better, and the rest of the party agrees, I don't think it's toxic to do so.


https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...fore_the_last/
It reads to me that people have the right to kick people for other reasons than are listed and they don't constitute a breach of rules. Seems pretty clear and not a "judgement basis" to me, at least until we see otherwise from a GM response I'll be conducting myself according to what I've read and seen.

If you are kicking after the person gets nasty then kick way. People need to own their own behavior. Toxic is toxic. However, assuming someone is awful because they don’t want to large pull is your choice but they could have legit reasons why the can’t large pull or don’t want to besides being bad.
As far as the gm response which is from a couple of years ago that could not be the case anymore after the change in TOS which occurred this past Feb. To my knowledge there has not been a confirmation since the rule change.

[cicatriz313]

If you are kicking after the person gets nasty then kick way. People need to own their own behavior. Toxic is toxic. However, assuming someone is awful because they don’t want to large pull is your choice but they could have legit reasons why the can’t large pull or don’t want to besides being bad.
As far as the gm response which is from a couple of years ago that could not be the case anymore after the change in TOS which occurred this past Feb. To my knowledge there has not been a confirmation since the rule change.

Yeah, that's why I said I'll conduct myself until I see otherwise. I'm sure someone will post a "I got banned for booting someone!" post if it happens, everyone likes to complain when they get banned.

that shows no context, the message is clearly a part of a longer conversation. We have no information on what happened, or why they kicked them. The Gm is basically saying that they will allow kicks that are outside of the 4 reasons stated, if they feel like it, based on their judgement.

As i said, the gm is basically saying we looked at our case, and regardless of the letter of the law, we find no wrong done. They are not saying, as everybody else is with hyperbole, that they will allow anything.

I can say just going by whatever SE enforces via gm moderation, almost all of the tos, and most norms would be considered to not apply. How many botters, griefers, exploiters, harassers etc have never seen an action taken against them? Does that mean SE is cool with it? Does that mean the community is? Does that mean the basic social behavior norms are?

Well considering all it says is it has to be obstructing gameplay, and just kicking isn't that, I would rather go with a vague reason than not do something for absolutely no reason. There's a difference between a GM NOT saying anything about a case and saying the opposite of what you're saying. And they're specifically stating "differences in playstyles" is a valid reason, nothing about up to judgement, and pulling small pulls vs large pulls is definitely a difference in playstyles. Again, we will see if GMs say anything different now that the TOS changed, but I haven't seen anything yet.

[Physic]

Well, I respect your opinion, and I hope people like you will be there to carry all the players who will get booted for "differences in playstyle" because if I see anyone mention "don't play my sub", they're getting a kick. I'm honestly under the impression that a tank who refuses to pull large when a group expresses confidence in the party's ability to do so, is the type of player who refuses to change and would say that type of stuff. I mean, of course the bar is set low to allow players to get through the game, it allows SE to keep raking in the dough, but if I have the tools to make MY experience better, and the rest of the party agrees, I don't think it's toxic to do so.


https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...fore_the_last/
It reads to me that people have the right to kick people for other reasons than are listed and they don't constitute a breach of rules. Seems pretty clear and not a "judgement basis" to me, at least until we see otherwise from a GM response I'll be conducting myself according to what I've read and seen.

that shows no context, the message is clearly a part of a longer conversation. We have no information on what happened, or why they kicked them. The Gm is basically saying that they will allow kicks that are outside of the 4 reasons stated, if they feel like it, based on their judgement.


As i said, the gm is basically saying we looked at our case, and regardless of the letter of the law, we find no wrong done. They are not saying, as everybody else is with hyperbole, that they will allow anything.


Regardless, this was never a conversation about whether you have the physical ability to initiate a kick, it has always been about what are legitimate acceptable reasons for kicking people.


I can say just going by whatever SE enforces via gm moderation, almost all of the tos, and most norms would be considered to not apply. How many botters, griefers, exploiters, harassers etc have never seen an action taken against them? Does that mean SE is cool with it? Does that mean the community is? Does that mean the basic social behavior norms are?

The majority of people that get kicked are BELOW the average.

Nothing to do with meta or being average, it's when you are waaay below the average when we have a problem.

you shouldnt be kicking people for being below average, by definition 49% of people are below average, i can guarantee you that SE does not want 49% of the population to be kicked from dungeons.


The only reason SE is not going to make a big deal about kicks, is that it would be hard to enforce, and by and large, its not a problem. Most people actually dont kick players for being below average. I have played with many bad players, and have sometimes been the bad player myself. Most kicks i have seen are based on AFK/offline. And most of the skill based kicks were actually more about clashes of ego rather than any objective person sucking more than the other. And those were super rare, and they didnt go anywhere, because i usually play with friends, or dont vote to kick some one based on that premise.



leaving is way more likely than kicking, and leaving though annoying at times is definitely fair to all involved.

[Physic]

I still say toxic is subjective, as this thread shows people think asking people to do more is toxic, and people think not doing more is toxic. So is it toxic to queue up in dungeons knowing full well you don't care about how you play? Is it toxic to be a "you don't play my sub" type user? Or is it only toxic to be someone who kicks said user?


Someone earlier threw out the GM's response about kicking based on "differences in playstyle" being a perfectly good reason for kicking. So if a GM says so...

i havent seen the context of this response, but if a gm says something that can have no objective meaning, they are basically just telling people they will use their own judgement for any given situation.