Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Kaedan]

You are inherently getting more damage from large pulls though. That's how aoe works. If you hit 3 monsters for 200 potency each in an aoe, if you add more monsters to that with a larger pull, even if it does the 50% 30% etc thing some aoe does now, it will still be more damage per gcd. This will be even more true if say the single pull is 3 mobs and some people are doing single target rotations because it's better for their job. This is more damage for tanks, healers (if they know how to use their ogcds), and dps.

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

[Hash_Browns]

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

I have never had an instance where slapping 3 regens on a tank in a dungeon wasn't enough to have me not even need to heal them.

[Physic]

I have never had an instance where slapping 3 regens on a tank in a dungeon wasn't enough to have me not even need to heal them.

collective unconscious?

thats 1/90 seconds. Im assuming the third regen is the aoe one, you are talking about 150+140+40 =320 potency heal every 3 seconds. 190 on the pull after that. The only way thats adequate healing for pulls of 2+ groups of monsters consistently is if you and the tank are over geared for the instance.

I really think a lot of the people here have not played a dungeon at minimum ilevel in a really long time. Generally speaking there is a signifigant increase in ease for tanks and healers, with the combination of both being high making things signifigantly different in terms of what they are capable of.

not that its impossible with pretty good coordination, but its pretty risky to pull more than 2 groups at minimum ilevel consistently through the dungeon. Also, when dps is weaker, you are more likely to run low on resources as you go on further.

basically yall are used to being OP.

[Gemina]

collective unconscious?

thats 1/90 seconds. Im assuming the third regen is the aoe one, you are talking about 150+140+40 =320 potency heal every 3 seconds. 190 on the pull after that. The only way thats adequate healing for pulls of 2+ groups of monsters consistently is if you and the tank are over geared for the instance.

I really think a lot of the people here have not played a dungeon at minimum ilevel in a really long time. Generally speaking there is a signifigant increase in ease for tanks and healers, with the combination of both being high making things signifigantly different in terms of what they are capable of.

not that its impossible with pretty good coordination, but its pretty risky to pull more than 2 groups at minimum ilevel consistently through the dungeon. Also, when dps is weaker, you are more likely to run low on resources as you go on further.

basically yall are used to being OP.

Pretty much this.

It doesn't take extensive search on the healer forums to come across a post where a healer is griping because a tank bites off more than he can chew. We have a similar thread there to the DF thread here to go and vent. Tanks who melt like butter in a hot oven are not a rare occurrence. No amount of regens, ogcds, or boosted gcds are going to save them or the group. They could have a low ilv, broken gear, not using proper CD rotations, or a combination of those.

Hell, this just happened to me the other night in Temple of the Fist - a level 70 dungeon. This DRK pulled wall to wall after the second boss, remained in DPS stance, and only used Living Dead. His Walking Dead status was almost instantly negated because I was cure bombing the crap out of him, and had no room for offensive gcds. I exhausted everything and was left with adlo and physick spam. He still dropped, and then the rest of us got picked off.

The thing is, I feel this actually justifies kicking the tank. Why? Because he was not able to perform the core part of his job, which involves maintaining aggro. As a lv70 DRK myself, I am fully aware of what his toolkit consists of, and always FT the tank in dungeons when they do pulls so I can keep a closer eye on them. Whether his gear was not up to date or broken doesn't even matter. By choosing to do a supplementary task that is involved with tanking i.e. large pulls, he compromised the entire party because he lost all aggro when he dropped. All of us ended up taking damage, and eventually got KO'd. Yet, many players in this thread and on these forums will complement such a tank for "trying" despite the wipe, even though full blown wipes are going to add a significant amount of time to the run. Far more than small pulls.

Ah well, I just continue to sit over here scratching my head.

[Granyala]

Hell, this just happened to me the other night in Temple of the Fist - a level 70 dungeon. This DRK pulled wall to wall after the second boss, remained in DPS stance, and only used Living Dead.

Yeah, some pulls won't work w/o tank CDs. Many a tank doesn't have the skill to use them, which is why I never put pressure on a tank if he pulls slow.
That being said: I did heal that pull a few times and it is the only pull I can remember in Stormbloods dungeons that is actually critical. 2 big ones + all of them dogs can be a bit much, esp since the scaling in there is rather aggressive.

[WaterShield]

Pretty much this.

It doesn't take extensive search on the healer forums to come across a post where a healer is griping because a tank bites off more than he can chew. We have a similar thread there to the DF thread here to go and vent. Tanks who melt like butter in a hot oven are not a rare occurrence. No amount of regens, ogcds, or boosted gcds are going to save them or the group. They could have a low ilv, broken gear, not using proper CD rotations, or a combination of those.

Hell, this just happened to me the other night in Temple of the Fist - a level 70 dungeon. This DRK pulled wall to wall after the second boss, remained in DPS stance, and only used Living Dead. His Walking Dead status was almost instantly negated because I was cure bombing the crap out of him, and had no room for offensive gcds. I exhausted everything and was left with adlo and physick spam. He still dropped, and then the rest of us got picked off.

The thing is, I feel this actually justifies kicking the tank. Why? Because he was not able to perform the core part of his job, which involves maintaining aggro. As a lv70 DRK myself, I am fully aware of what his toolkit consists of, and always FT the tank in dungeons when they do pulls so I can keep a closer eye on them. Whether his gear was not up to date or broken doesn't even matter. By choosing to do a supplementary task that is involved with tanking i.e. large pulls, he compromised the entire party because he lost all aggro when he dropped. All of us ended up taking damage, and eventually got KO'd. Yet, many players in this thread and on these forums will complement such a tank for "trying" despite the wipe, even though full blown wipes are going to add a significant amount of time to the run. Far more than small pulls.

Ah well, I just continue to sit over here scratching my head.

I would argue that having relevant gear to the dungeon and having it repaired is an even more basic skill. There is nothing for anyone to defend about that... yet I have seen threads with people arguing that people can't be expected to gear themselves appropriately because that its too harsh or some such tripe.

[Gemina]

I would argue that having relevant gear to the dungeon and having it repaired is an even more basic skill. There is nothing for anyone to defend about that... yet I have seen threads with people arguing that people can't be expected to gear themselves appropriately because that its too harsh or some such tripe.

I don't think you are arguing with me here though? We both acknowledge that in order for a tank to perform their most basic of tasks they need to have relevant gear with good condition. Without these requirements met, they are going to have trouble with maintaining aggro, and staying alive. If they are not on their feet, it is impossible for them to do their job. It's no longer about big vs small pulls in this case. Having to resort to smaller pulls becomes a circumstance of their neglect. Kick immediately! No one is doing this though. Instead, we're booting adequately geared tanks for pulling too small. Can you see why I'm scratching my head?

The threads that I do see more of, is the request to put an ilv requirement in leveling dungeons. This is another head scratcher. SE is basically allowing players to be lazy and neglectful by doing this. Leveling dungeons are actually harder to progress than end game dungeons, and it makes absolutely zero sense.

[cicatriz313]

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

I mean what you say can be said the same of single pulling. Like, bad players will be bad in large groups or small groups so that's a silly argument. IF players can use aoe in a general sense, it'll be more damage to have large groups, doesn't even matter if they're hitting all the mobs or not as long as they're hitting MORE than the single group. Of course tanks have to use cooldowns and healers have to heal, that's part of playing the game. If anything tanking is easier in a large group aoe situation because it just becomes using your aoe skills instead of cycling through and single targetting. Healing is mind dead easy no matter what you're doing, and in a large group situation the ogcd damage you have does more damage per use.

Edit: also literally every job has good aoe these days. Not sure why you keep focusing on that point. We aren't talking about leveling dungeons here.

[Lilseph]

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

That's a lot of IFs but none of these are super hard to accomplish.

-Mobs grouped well? Most of the cases they are. VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS REALLY, like the 2 worms at the end of The Burn, they are annoying. If you know on which mob you could apply your AoE, you'll target most if not all of them.

-DPS paying attention? Few instances where certain DPS have linear or conal AoE can be an issue, but even so, there's a gain even if you miss few of them. Refer to "IF" number 3.

-If the DPS have good AoE? ALL DPS have decent AoE. Except for SMN (tri-disaster outside of dreadwyrm trance), most of them have 100 to 110 potency AoE attacks, which on 3+ targets, it adds up considerably. Imagine having 440 potency per GCD and that's only hitting 4 targets. That's a lot of a damage compared to your usual rotation.

-If there aren't many ground effects? Few instances as well, we can mention the exceptions, but it doesn't mean all the cases are like that. Even so, both melees and ranged are quite mobile, they can dodge as they AoE. Ranged magical DPS are somewhat safer or have fast casts/DoTs that would make up for it.

-If tank stuff? I don't think there's any complexity here. 1 button for a cooldown, 1 button for... an AoE rotation? Overpower, Flash or Decimate/Steel Cyclone, DA abbysal drain/salted earth spam barely require a strict rotation. Cooldowns are used from the biggest to the smallest. It's not rocket science.

-If healer stuff? Playing healer myself, healing is braindead in dungeons. SCH? Blow your fairie's regen, tether them and put excog on them: Go ham. WHM? Slap regens on them: Go ham. AST? Regens or shields: Go ham. They also have offgcds to use in between their DPS spam and "oh sh-" heals.

You are making it sound like the planets must be aligned for that to happen, which it's completely untrue. Most of them require the bare minimum knowledge of your job to pull it off.

[Ilan]

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

Lets face it how it is: It doesn't matter how you pull if your party sucks, it will take forever one way or the other. You made up examples with the worst possible players to justify small pulls.