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  1. #1
    Player Veis_Alveare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    678
    Character
    Veis Alve'are
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Actually, you do not know what is a persons best. Just because you or I might find sth pathetically easy, does not mean it comes easy to everyone.
    I'm sure there are players out there that are really trying their best but simply aren't cut out for the game.

    I have encountered these kinds of people and that's why I am hesitant to kick based on subpar performance alone.
    I don't know their best but I know that with basic reading comprehension and the application of logic that I shouldn't see some of the poor play that I do.

    No one is asking for everyone to be a Savage raider but doing things like AoE, dps as a healer and using CDs as a tank is miles away from that and those are things anyone can do because anyone can read their tooltips.

    If they don't they're lazy and a kick isn't out of the question.
    (6)

  2. #2
    Player
    Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,635
    Character
    Ifalna Sha'yoko
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare View Post
    I don't know their best but I know that with basic reading comprehension and the application of logic that I shouldn't see some of the poor play that I do.
    I expect with basic reading comprehension and the application of logic, school mathematics should be a problem for no one.
    Yet I have met people with dyscalculia that cannot reliably perform simple arithmetic operations no matter how hard they try.

    We are talking about the 4 basic math operations here, if we have to baby people enough that the most basic things are considered a skill then the skill requirement is ZERO.
    Yeah, we do that plenty IRL.

    Why should we behave so differently in video games meant to entertain and relax?
    (1)
    Last edited by Granyala; 04-22-2019 at 11:57 PM.

  3. #3
    Player
    ReiMakoto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    1,197
    Character
    Rei Makato
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I expect with basic reading comprehension and the application of logic, school mathematics should be a problem for no one.
    Yet I have met people with dyscalculia that cannot reliably perform simple arithmetic operations no matter how hard they try.

    We are talking about the 4 basic math operations here, if we have to baby people enough that the most basic things are considered a skill then the skill requirement is ZERO.
    Yeah, we do that plenty IRL.

    Why should we behave so differently in video games meant to entertain and relax?
    As someone with learning difficulties, this is incredibly patronising to say we should baby people through things and let them play however they like to make them feel good. No one wants to feel like they are a detriment to other people, which is what you are being if you don't learn or play your class with base competence. People with learning difficulties don't need to be babied through, they need to be taught differently. The dungeon isn't necessarily the place to do that teaching, but letting someone know they are inhibiting the enjoyment of others and they should learn some basics (like using aoe or pulling big) isn't elitist, its common courtesy and you should push them to learn. Having a learning disability doesn't make having a grasp of the basics (which is what we're talking about here) unattainable.
    (8)
    Savage Completion Rate ~5%+ of active players. Community: "Ugh stop catering to savage"
    Ultimate Completion Rate ~1% of active players. Community: "Ugh stop catering to the hardcore raiders"
    Frontline/ Rival Wings/ Hidden Gorge Mount Aquisition ~0.05-1% of active players. Community: "Ugh PVP is so dead in this game, they should stop investing in it"
    Blue Mage Morbol Mount Aquisition ~0.01% of active players. Community: "WoW bLuE mAgE iS sO fUn AnD aCtIvE i CaN't WaIt FoR mOrE lImItEd JoBs"

  4. #4
    Player
    Physic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,616
    Character
    Bladed Arms
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by ReiMakoto View Post
    As someone with learning difficulties, this is incredibly patronising to say we should baby people through things and let them play however they like to make them feel good. No one wants to feel like they are a detriment to other people, which is what you are being if you don't learn or play your class with base competence. People with learning difficulties don't need to be babied through, they need to be taught differently. The dungeon isn't necessarily the place to do that teaching, but letting someone know they are inhibiting the enjoyment of others and they should learn some basics (like using aoe or pulling big) isn't elitist, its common courtesy and you should push them to learn. Having a learning disability doesn't make having a grasp of the basics (which is what we're talking about here) unattainable.
    The reality is disability isnt needed to make this argument. You dont have to be disabled not to be above average at this content. You can be undergeared, under experienced, or simply not have a prediliction for high effeciency playstyles.

    I am not sure why people think it is their duty to point out and correct non hyper effecient play in basic dungeons. What makes you think they want or desire your coaching on how to play more effeciently? Is it even worth the effort to spend time and energy explaining time attack strategies in a random dungeon group when no one has asked for tips on playing their role?

    it makes sense if some one has expressed interest in feedback, but outside of that its not really anyones duty to force hyper effeciency.
    (3)

  5. #5
    Player
    ReiMakoto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    1,197
    Character
    Rei Makato
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Physic View Post
    The reality is disability isnt needed to make this argument. You dont have to be disabled not to be above average at this content. You can be undergeared, under experienced, or simply not have a prediliction for high effeciency playstyles.

    I am not sure why people think it is their duty to point out and correct non hyper effecient play in basic dungeons. What makes you think they want or desire your coaching on how to play more effeciently? Is it even worth the effort to spend time and energy explaining time attack strategies in a random dungeon group when no one has asked for tips on playing their role?

    it makes sense if some one has expressed interest in feedback, but outside of that its not really anyones duty to force hyper effeciency.
    We arn't talking about hyper efficiency, we're talking about basic competence in pressing your aoe buttons and pulling big, I don't give a damn about the numbers you're putting out so long as you're actually trying. I know I never would have gotten good at this game without advice from vets in dungeons either. Also we've spoken to you before about this, outside of a leveling dungeon, large pulls are always just objectively better, and so is pressing your aoe when there's 3+ targets, its not about ultra high efficiency, its about basic competence.
    (6)
    Savage Completion Rate ~5%+ of active players. Community: "Ugh stop catering to savage"
    Ultimate Completion Rate ~1% of active players. Community: "Ugh stop catering to the hardcore raiders"
    Frontline/ Rival Wings/ Hidden Gorge Mount Aquisition ~0.05-1% of active players. Community: "Ugh PVP is so dead in this game, they should stop investing in it"
    Blue Mage Morbol Mount Aquisition ~0.01% of active players. Community: "WoW bLuE mAgE iS sO fUn AnD aCtIvE i CaN't WaIt FoR mOrE lImItEd JoBs"

  6. #6
    Player
    Physic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,616
    Character
    Bladed Arms
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by ReiMakoto View Post
    We arn't talking about hyper efficiency, we're talking about basic competence in pressing your aoe buttons and pulling big, I don't give a damn about the numbers you're putting out so long as you're actually trying. I know I never would have gotten good at this game without advice from vets in dungeons either. Also we've spoken to you before about this, outside of a leveling dungeon, large pulls are always just objectively better, and so is pressing your aoe when there's 3+ targets, its not about ultra high efficiency, its about basic competence.
    Out the gate i am going to tell you leveling dungeons are no different than any other dungeon for some one at ilevel. People at minimum ilevel are usually going to be the ones afraid of big pulls. People at ilevel will be grouped with people not at ilevel.

    2nd what i am telling you is that your standard of what is basic competence is subjective, and based on an educated guess based on our other conversations And your profile, your subjective standard is probably high.

    you have like 17 level 70 charachters, you find dungeons to be extremely easy throw away content, you love to focus primarily on high end raids. If you are used to savage content, you are probably of a mindstate that prefers pushing limits, over merely passing. Your general mindstate, and way of thinking about and interacting with this game is probably only a representation of how 5% or less see and interact with the game.

    you are unlikely to have a fair subjective view of what a passing grade on a basic dungeon is.


    i would say SE considers a passing grade on a dungeon to be 20-25 minutes with less than 2 wipes. My guess is for you, a passing grade would be 12-17 minutes with zero wipes.

    single pull can fall within 25 minute runs, and zero wipes
    (4)

  7. #7
    Player
    cicatriz313's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    428
    Character
    Fayt Azuresky
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 80
    SE would consider anything okay as long as people are playing the game. Like asking people to know that aoes are good in large groups shouldn't be a toxic elitist 5% of the population kind of thing. It should be common knowledge at level 70 at the least. It's weird to me how people are defending poor play as if it's the norm when most runs I've seen since like late 2.x have been pull big and aoe. Enough so that people complain about how every dungeon is the same situation. So if the norm is to do large pulls and someone refuses to do the norm are they not holding back other people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Feidam View Post
    It is. But when looking at time to kill if the time still takes longer than you could of killed 3 separate packs then it is a net loss in efficiency. It also assumes that the aoes are hitting all targets and we know that does not always happen. So again it is not a one size fits all scenario. I have no problem with large pulls or smalls. Making things go boom is what I do unless I am healing. We are talking about the aggressive behavior that comes from some players because optimal isn’t happening and treating people like robots. You can not ignore the human component. Even the best screw up.
    Well that's a completely different argument than you were making before lol. You said specifically you were not getting more damage in potency which... you are. No matter how you look at it. And is it possible for large groups to die slower than 3 separate pulls? There's a chance, sure. But I would argue in MOST cases, like 95+% of cases it's significantly faster to kill in a large group because every gcd you're spending is hitting that many more mobs, and then you have to worry about ramp up time for a lot of jobs. Then you take into account things like blood accumulation on drk, shield swipe on pld, being able to spend all your ogcds in one pull rather than waiting between 3 pulls etc. There are way more reasons to do large pulls when adequately geared than there is not to. That's why it's the norm. Also if you're betting on people to screw up, efficiency isn't even part of the discussion.
    (3)
    Last edited by cicatriz313; 04-23-2019 at 02:38 AM.

  8. #8
    Player
    AnnaRosa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    515
    Character
    Anni Suri
    World
    Spriggan
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Physic View Post

    i would say SE considers a passing grade on a dungeon to be 20-25 minutes with less than 2 wipes. My guess is for you, a passing grade would be 12-17 minutes with zero wipes.

    single pull can fall within 25 minute runs, and zero wipes
    Actually did read one article about one research made by Dr Alejandro Lleras from the University of Illinois that could prove our brain can not be truly focused in one single task for long period which comes to confirm the Pomodoro technique from Frascenco Cirillo to set a timer for one task in order for a better productive time being that time 30 minutes with 5 minutes break for even work and study.

    Of course the Pomodoro technique is more developed because it involve to discover the physical and mental work for each different person preform the same task in a per-determined time (25 minutes).

    Amazing now you mentioned even at that SE had the courtesy to help their players.
    (3)

  9. #9
    Player
    ReiMakoto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    1,197
    Character
    Rei Makato
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Physic View Post
    Out the gate i am going to tell you leveling dungeons are no different than any other dungeon for some one at ilevel. People at minimum ilevel are usually going to be the ones afraid of big pulls. People at ilevel will be grouped with people not at ilevel.

    2nd what i am telling you is that your standard of what is basic competence is subjective, and based on an educated guess based on our other conversations And your profile, your subjective standard is probably high.

    you have like 17 level 70 charachters, you find dungeons to be extremely easy throw away content, you love to focus primarily on high end raids. If you are used to savage content, you are probably of a mindstate that prefers pushing limits, over merely passing. Your general mindstate, and way of thinking about and interacting with this game is probably only a representation of how 5% or less see and interact with the game.

    you are unlikely to have a fair subjective view of what a passing grade on a basic dungeon is.


    i would say SE considers a passing grade on a dungeon to be 20-25 minutes with less than 2 wipes. My guess is for you, a passing grade would be 12-17 minutes with zero wipes.

    single pull can fall within 25 minute runs, and zero wipes
    Leveling dungeons arnt the same as all the other ones at ilvl though, especially some of the pre 50 dungeons, theres no gating on pulls at all so even at highest ilvl i wouldnt reccommend mass pulling. Everything that does have gating should at least be attempted to be pulled to the wall. As ive said before, my standards arn't high for dungeons, i just want dps to aoe, tanks to pulls as much as they can (determined by pulling everything you can im gated pull dungeons, and if you die, trying again with less), and healers as least trying to do some damage while keeping the tank alive. Communication is key in these situations.

    Also i love how youre telling me how i think about things, I guess youre just a master person reader.
    (4)
    Savage Completion Rate ~5%+ of active players. Community: "Ugh stop catering to savage"
    Ultimate Completion Rate ~1% of active players. Community: "Ugh stop catering to the hardcore raiders"
    Frontline/ Rival Wings/ Hidden Gorge Mount Aquisition ~0.05-1% of active players. Community: "Ugh PVP is so dead in this game, they should stop investing in it"
    Blue Mage Morbol Mount Aquisition ~0.01% of active players. Community: "WoW bLuE mAgE iS sO fUn AnD aCtIvE i CaN't WaIt FoR mOrE lImItEd JoBs"

  10. #10
    Player
    Fyce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    1,755
    Character
    Fyce Alvey
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Why should we behave so differently in video games meant to entertain and relax?
    Entertaining? Sure. Relaxing? I don't even understand how can someone say that. Freaking Pac Man and Space Invaders were not relaxing. Heck, even the creator of the first ever "video game" was recorded rage quitting his own game out of frustration and anger because he wasn't good at it.

    Listening to zen music in a comfy chair is relaxing. Doing yoga is relaxing. Taking a hot bath is relaxing. Playing Dark Souls is not.
    If you want to relax playing a video game, you actually have to actively search for a game that can provide you with that. And they are such a tiny niche that finding good ones can be quite hard.

    Video games are not meant to be relaxing. Some are. Most aren't.
    (2)

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