Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Hazama999]

I only ever do small pulls if it's my first time in a dungeon or I haven't been in a dungeon in a really long time (and as someone who hasn't touched expert in months, that last one is very likely). If I'm familiar with the dungeon, I'll pull as much as I can (provided the healer isn't new). If the healer can't handle it, I'll tone it down next time.

That said, I don't really care much for big or small pulls. I find that we're not out of the dungeons that much faster when we do bigger pulls.

[Fyce]

Those points are that we have so few tanks as it is, and kicking one for the reluctance to do large pulls is unreasonable.

That's a ridiculous statement. You don't get a free pass at doing what you want just because you play a role that is in demand. That's absolutly not how it works.
And don't try to use that "muh responsabilities" argument, it's a total fraud. Again, the weight of these "responsabilities" doesn't give you the right to ignore the will of the majority of the group just because you want to watch Netflix after throwing a few Flash/Overpower and pressing a cooldown once in a while. You claim that healing is easy, well, guess what, tanking is even easier. Trying to argue otherwise would only show how little knowledge one would have on tanking (at least in dungeons).

You want to know an actual reason why a lot of players don't play tanks? Because of people like you, who make it look like tanking is so hard and would put tons of responsabilities on their shoulders. So if you could drop that line of thinking and stop spreading it, maybe people would actually start being less anxious at something that is clearly not as bad as you make it sound.

I never said adjusting to the strength of the party lacks common sense. I said tanks are under no obligation to do so. This is a courtesy, not a rule.

Calling something that is at the core of a tank's duty and teamplay a "courtesy" is preposterous.
And even then, if you are not courteous in a multiplayer environment -or think is okay not to be as if it was optional-, then you not only fail at being a tank or even a team player as I said previously, but you also fail as a human being for lacking any kind of empathy and decency toward your teammates. Like, really, you are trying to make an argument excusing bad teamplay because "you're not forced to be courteous". Are you really aware of what kind of argument you are using and how toxic that kind of behavior would be if it was widespread?
Whatever the case, yes, adapting your pulls to your party is a rule. That's one of your main job as a tank. Arguing otherwise makes me wonder who is lacking common sense here. So if 3 out of 4 people want you to pull more, you being the 4th, and if you don't have a good reason not to (and no, "being a tank with responsabilities" is not a good reason), then you should pull more. Period. Refusing to do so -for no valid reason- only opens yourself to get kicked for "differences in playstyle". And it would be deserved.

Tanks are not precious. They don't have more privileges or entitlement than other players. Stop thinking they are some kind of snowflakes that everyone should protect and blindly follow without being able to contest their decisions.
If your party doesn't like the way you play, try to ask you to change and you refuse, you get kicked. Tank or not. And I'm saying that as someone with more than 4 years of tanking in this game, and more in others. I would gladly take a kick if I was not "courterous" in a dungeon or if I tried to play selfishly for no reason other than a self-proclaimed entitlement.

[Greven]

Nobody are entitled and nobody should force a type of playstyle on others if there wasn't a previous agreement like in a party finder.

We don't know well the details but under the reasons for kicking there isn't anything even close to justify that.

They could've and should've disbanded by common agreement and queue the duty again covering the roles more involved in the game style they wanted.

[Fland]

I never said adjusting to the strength of the party lacks common sense. I said tanks are under no obligation to do so. This is a courtesy, not a rule. A good and experienced tank will be able to gauge what the party is capable of, and pull accordingly. What is common sense is that it is the tank that determines the size of the pull. A DPS or healer can know that they are capable of bringing down more than one pack of mobs, and request the tank pull more, but ultimately it is up to him or her to do so. If they go on ahead and pull more mobs into the fray, they are NOT being courteous to the tank, and also making him/her feel like schite in the process.

Healers who DPS 90% of the time isn't the same as a tank who spends 90% of the time in DPS stance. However, both understand that the bare minimum their role requires allows them to contribute a modest amount of DPS to the group's overall damage. I might catch some flack from other healer mains for saying they have a smaller amount of responsibility, but the truth often hurts. Fact of the matter is they have the largest amount of downtime out of the three roles. If they are not contributing to damage, they would literally be standing around doing nothing with the exception of tossing a regen and an ogcd heal here and there; 90% of the time.

Much like large pulls from the tank, healer DPS is a courtesy to the other members of the group. It's not required of them, and there is no rule that forces them to do it. Kicking a tank for not doing large pulls is akin to kicking a healer for not DPSing. Both are only doing the group a disservice because now not only do they have to wait for another tank/healer to enter the queue; they also have to wait for one who happens to have PiP checked off in their duty finder.

But it still based on the party. The tank is not entitled to determine the pull based on themselves, otherwise you also imply tanks are entitled to do large pulls even with new, inexperienced, or undergeared healer/DPS because they themselves can and are equipped to do so.

Basically, adjusting pull to party works in every case, including the case where the party adjust to new, inexperienced, or undergeared tanks.
But adjusting pull solely on tanks only works in case where the tanks are new/undergeared, but not when other party members are.
So tanks sole entitlement is not common sense.

[van_arn]

Nobody are entitled and nobody should force a type of playstyle on others if there wasn't a previous agreement like in a party finder.

We don't know well the details but under the reasons for kicking there isn't anything even close to justify that.

They could've and should've disbanded by common agreement and queue the duty again covering the roles more involved in the game style they wanted.

There is zero reason to disband when the problem can be solved by kicking a single person.

[Feidam]

There is zero reason to disband when the problem can be solved by kicking a single person.

So one person has a penalty forced on them because the run will take 5 mins longer? I’m not even a tank and this annoys me. Never mind it’s this type of behavior that helped facilitate their “new rules”. If the tank is steadily pulling and the dungeon is clearing kicking them is harassment. If it bothers a player that much to not large pull they could drop the duty. Oh! But wait! If they do that then they are penalized. So they penalize someone else instead. If I ever witnessed this I might report the others myself. If I ask a tank to large pull and they refuse in a non douchebag manner then I can stay or I can leave. If they want to be toxic then they can go.

[Greven]

There is zero reason to disband when the problem can be solved by kicking a single person.

As I said we don't know the details, maybe the tank was being just selfish and lazy? Then yeah kick is the better option. But maybe the other 2-3 were forcing that person to do something he/she were not ready or willing to due for valid reasons, them being a group doesn't justify being bullies and the rules on how to use "kick" are there exactly to prevent this.

I agree disband sounds like too much but in doubt better behave with respect for the others. But if you want to look at it from a practical point of view: the time to get another player could be the time to do slower pulls. And again even if it was 1 minute slower.. who really cares? It's nothing.

Just to clarify, cause I've already seen people going personal: I'm main tank and I like to greet my party and pull and sprint until I hit wall. If I notice some something from a leafy to a low gear I sometime ask if it's okay to do big/fast pulls.

[SaitoHikari]

I mean, I can see why tanks want to pull as little as possible with the way that most DPS play in this game. People heap tons of responsibility onto the tank while putting very little responsibility towards the majority of the community, the DPS. That's why I, as a savage raider that's close to clearing UwU, don't really care which way tanks lean. A mass pulling tank AND their healer are both going to have very a bad time if they happen to be paired with DPS that don't AoE at all, and I consider that to be the biggest reason why there's such a major tank shortage in this game. Even I have no desire to tank at all after witnessing firsthand what happens nearly every time I actually did tank, so I opted to main Bard not only because I enjoy it, but because I can help make fights go a lot more smoothly than if I played as any other role.

That said, as a Bard, I do prefer if tanks mass pull, but that's because I have a responsibility to be prepared for them and nuke giant packs into the ground while simultaneously helping the tank and healer mitigate damage taken with physical Troubadour/Palisade/Nature's Minne. Due to the nature of how our AoE is most effective in a 30 second window out of 80 seconds, Bard AoE encourages mass pulling for maximum effectiveness. Thing is, the way most Bards play, most tanks probably don't even realize this about them at all (I've had a few tanks get snippy at me about me mass dotting enemies during the pull, but I actually HAVE to if I want mass rain of death resets once the tank reaches the end destination and I switch into Mage's Ballad). Even so, mass or small pulling doesn't make that much of a difference to me in the end (since it usually means I'll be able to nuke a small pack into the ground with Wanderer's Minuet without having to worry about not having it ready for an opener at a boss instead), but it'd probably bother other classes in ways that I'm not particularly aware of.

Basically, what I'm saying is, maybe tanks and healers would be more comfortable going for faster/riskier strategies if they could actually trust their DPS to step up their game too. And the way this community reacts violently to any suggestion to push themselves to become better, the situation really won't ever change.

[Hash_Browns]

So one person has a penalty forced on them because the run will take 5 mins longer? I’m not even a tank and this annoys me. Never mind it’s this type of behavior that helped facilitate their “new rules”. If the tank is steadily pulling and the dungeon is clearing kicking them is harassment. If it bothers a player that much to not large pull they could drop the duty. Oh! But wait! If they do that then they are penalized. So they penalize someone else instead. If I ever witnessed this I might report the others myself. If I ask a tank to large pull and they refuse in a non douchebag manner then I can stay or I can leave. If they want to be toxic then they can go.

Kicking a tank who refuses to play effectively isn't harassment, nor do they get penalized.
If you want the reward from the dungeon, you gotta be willing to work for it.

[Gemina]

That's a ridiculous statement. You don't get a free pass at doing what you want just because you play a role that is in demand. That's absolutly not how it works.

This is a ridiculous statement. From what I can tell, this tank wasn't doing what the party WANTED him to do; not doing what he wanted to do. He was there to tank, was doing it, and got kicked anyway. If you think I'm saying that you can just play how you want to play due to privilege, you have absolutely no clue whatsoever where I'm coming from.

And don't try to use that "muh responsabilities" argument, it's a total fraud. Again, the weight of these "responsabilities" doesn't give you the right to ignore the will of the majority of the group just because you want to watch Netflix after throwing a few Flash/Overpower and pressing a cooldown once in a while. You claim that healing is easy, well, guess what, tanking is even easier. Trying to argue otherwise would only show how little knowledge one would have on tanking (at least in dungeons).

Ohhhh, I've been tanking dungeons for quite some time. Come along anytime to see how little I know about tanking them. I'm not saying "muh responsabilities"; I try to use proper grammar as best I can, sir. What I am saying is that the tank is under no obligation to pull large. The group is not entitled to make demands, which they did. Want to disagree with that? Go right ahead.

You want to know an actual reason why a lot of players don't play tanks? Because of people like you, who make it look like tanking is so hard and would put tons of responsabilities on their shoulders. So if you could drop that line of thinking and stop spreading it, maybe people would actually start being less anxious at something that is clearly not as bad as you make it sound.

Resorting to personal attacks now are we? That's indicative of intellectual bankruptcy, but go right ahead and keep going with your trite strawman arguments. I never said tanking was hard. Go ahead and point out where I did. I just said it has more responsibility, which it does. Responsibility =/= difficulty.

Calling something that is at the core of a tank's duty and teamplay a "courtesy" is preposterous...

Ok, probably best I end this argument with you right here. You're on a tangent and clearly infallible. My humblest of apologies for ruffling thy feathers, my lord.