Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

[Lauront]

Only BIG game with a beast race that I can personally say I have exp with is GW2 ... where the Charr are basically played on par with every non human race. And THATS a game that will never add a new race as races actually mean something in their world ... and the Charr are the most beast race I know of seeing as they can run on all 4s. Looking at Wow where it seems they have a crap ton of races because of how they design things ... sure, the top 3 are human and 2 pretty human races that add up to like 40%. But all those other unattractive races make up more than half of players. Orcs are the 4th most played race, right behind the pretty people.

Charr are 13% of total played characters. Orcs something like 7%, which is not bad given its number of races. WoW has pretty high diversity of races, and simply because a race is not "pretty" does not mean it is bestial or monstrous. The actual bestial races come to something like 30% in total. However, that is me being generous, because they also exhibit a significant variety in body types and they have a stronger lore background tying into WC3. So at most Hrothgar will attract a subset of WoW players who want a beast race fitting that specific body type - and also with this being the only real barrier to them taking up the game.

Given how many "Wow refugees" they are getting I'd say the devs were right to want more visual diversity in their last race addition. Not everyone is inlove with this weeb culture that's developed around this game.

We won't really know until we see the active % of players who comprise Hrothgar. Until then the more accurate assessment is that the devs are taking a risk, with uncertain payoffs. I'd say based on existing patterns of what WoW (and other MMO) players play, I don't foresee them being particularly more common than Roegadyn.

I also don't get your comment about "weeb culture". It's a Japanese game but it already offers options for people who don't want to play anything "weeb". It's also not the case that JP games don't add bestial characters.

I pointed it out to you already. Again .. the amount of time and money, man power, resources that they have to put into designing and supporting a new race will not be made up with some people buying a race change potion. There is a reason why they say this is IT for new races and why they wanted to make the Viera fans happy now as they can't say they are gonna do this again. A race is not content that keeps people coming back, it's a painfully expensive cosmetic option to the team.

So they want to make people "happy". Why? What's the end goal here from the business's perspective? It's odd, because when it comes to Hrothgar you seem to claim they're justified in doing it to try capture WoW refugees. Yet when it comes to Viera, it's just to "make people happy". Seems awfully convenient, to me.

In reality, there's two goals they can fulfill with this: 1) attracting new players and 2) provide more options to existing players to ensure they keep playing the game. Both of these things entail an ROI.

A potion cost $10
The newest dances? $7 each.
The massively popular Fat cat mount? Like $28

Which is gonna be profitable when you think about the work that goes into these at face value?

Your claim is that the devs don't add races for the sake of profitability. All the above points to is that some things cost more to purchase than others. That's literally it. Those things don't really build on the base of the game, though. They're accessories. You could strip the game dry of any content on the basis of such logic. No raids, no relics, no PVP. I mean why bother? The fat cat mount is $28.

In reality, those mogstation items and mounts require the base game to be there and adequately developed to keep people playing and coming in, to make their purchase even worthwhile. What new races do is act as a feature of the game, both to recruit new players and retain existing players. That's where the "making them happy" comes into it. Even if they're not as profitable on the margin as some of those features, the point is that their expected ROI is to elevate player spending above where it otherwise would be, contributing to higher overall profitability.

Anyway, the Roebros are the ONLY "burly" thing in this game right now. They are not the be all end all of buff races and are not exactly the most appealing body type given their shape and proportions. And Roebros numbers are not far from male elezens ... ya know, the race a possible Male Viera would be based on according to Yoshi.

Eh? They're built like refrigerators. That doesn't make them the "only" burly race in the game. Highlanders and Au Ra are muscular and burly. Just not to that extreme.

That's because the same ten or so people keep posting on this thread artificially inflating its post count. I can confidentially claim that at least one hundred posts are of meaningless fanart. And at least half of the rest are Senn or MrKimper being trolls.

Ah, so the same ten people pressed the like button 150 times each?

How enlightening.

I'm not against male Viera, but honestly, I wish that they would first update the damn creator with more features and implement better textures within the game. It's 2019, must everything new that's being added still look outdated and fuzzy?

Seconded.

It's almost like this is a forum.

I think very few people play elezen is because of their unappealing proportions. If they were to use the male elezen model as a base and altered it to fix the proportions for male viera, I would be all for that. For hrothgar, it seems like it is using a modified roegadyn base, and perhaps you are correct in saying there are people who would prefer the hrothgar body type. I'm glad people are getting this option.

Definitely. The Elezen model has issues besides its body shape preventing it from being more highly played; namely, the long neck, the stiff animations and more besides. Already we can see for the Viera females, they are much more fluid than their Elezen female counterparts. I imagine the males would be reworked similarly. I would expect Viera men to be nearer to Hyur or Miqo'te men if they fix the animation issues. Even getting to the same figures as Au Ra men, though, would put them at double relative to Roes. That design space - between Elezen/Midlanders (lean, toned) and Au Ra/Highlanders (sturdy bulk but not at Roe levels of size), is a fairly popular one and I think fluid animations will help it.

To be fair, the Hrothgar model will end up being better than the Roegadyn model, so I expect it to be somewhat more played, and also draw down on their figures a bit, probably settling a bit above them.

[BastienWyngarden]

My friends, please listen.

To the supporters of this thread, you do yourself a disservice and trivialize the legitimacy of this thread by arguing with and attacking people. Remain strong headed and stay on topic.

To the opponents of male viera, there is no wrong opinion, your input is valued and welcome, but there has been a lot of trolling in these threads, let us remain civil.

Simply put, everyone please knock off the childish nonsense, we are here to voice our support for the inclusion of male viera.

[Melichoir]

The Elezen model has issues besides its body shape preventing it from being more highly played; namely, the long neck, the stiff animations and more besides.

If they wanted to make elezen more popular, theyre gonna have to fix the over all proportions and aesthetics of the model. While most of us can agree that the giraffe neck is a problem, it goes beyond just that. The proportions are semi shot for the male elezen, and somewhat shot for the female elezen so that it creates a weird stretch elongated look that doesnt look natural. Just as a point:




These are quick photoshop edits I did to fix the models proportions. There are a few things to note. First, the head/body ratio is completely off. The head appears to small for the body size; The fix would be a slightly larger head size. The obvious neck issue is also a problem (its more pronounced in males than females). To fix it, theyd need to first make sure it doesnt taper off like it does when the head turns, but also to shorten it. Other points to address is to make sure the traps arent to big and hte shoulders sit higher on the frame instead of looking like they hang off, and to fix the male torso. As a point, the male torso appears semi-effeminate due to how much the waist tapers in and then bows back out quite a bit at the hips. Tinkering with the shoulders and pecks proportions would fix some of the torso proportions overall.

Lastly, and this is more noticeable on female models, is youd need to 'slim' the model down. It's to broad for the proportions. You can simulate vertical elegance by making models slimmer overall.

I feel proportions more like this would make elezen a lot more appealing to the broader public. However, changes like this would require a lot of work. I outlined this months ago regarding the lalafell models. Modifying the mesh will mean modifying the rig and the weights. It's not like they can just use the liquify tool in Photoshop and make things all better. It's because of hte amount of work even semi-subtle changes can cause a lot of problems. Not to mention how armor then works, animations, etc. I do agree that they should be fixed (because besides lalafells, Elezens have the wonkiest bodies IMO) but this kind of work is almost on the same level as designing a new race. So we probably wont see this kind of thing for a looong time, if at all. A solution COULD be to create male viera and swap heads, but even that isnt so clean cut, as itd probably end up being the same amount of work. Now thta I think of it, could be why they said Hrothgar/viera would be the last race. Maybe they do want to update player models.

[Lauront]

They're evidently trying to challenge themselves on character customisation. What that will amount to, ultimately, remains to be seen. I do think they need to work on it at some point, especially if they're planning to roll out a few more expansions, but we probably won't see anything particularly ambitious until 6.0, since they're well aware that the current graphics system is holding them back. However, it's still at the phase of tentative "we would like to do this" statements more than anything else, probably because they'd need to get their bosses to buy into that before planning to do anything more concrete. I like the changes you came up with. They'd still need more work, I reckon, in regards to the animations but already it's a good start in terms of eradicating what looks so off about them.

[Melichoir]

6.0 Would be the optimistic guess. I mean just considering current factors - If they do decide to implement male viera/fem hrothgar, then youre looking at 5.35 at the very earliest if they dedicate hard resources to it, though 6.0 is more likely. In either case, the development would push back character model updates cause thats a project in of itself (and a selling point if they wanted it to be to get old players to return.) If they put male viera on the backburner, then you can assume character creator updates would be 6.0 at teh earliest cause as the devs pointed out with the low poly models, its gonna require rebuilding most of the game assets from scratch. Trouble theyll run into though is hte longer they take, the more assets. And if we dont see it by 6.0 or so, chances are we wont see it at all cause there will be to much to have to update.

[Lauront]

Indeed, which is why if they plan to do it, it needs to be by 6.0 really. I would not mind it if they delayed male Viera a bit further past 6.0, if it meant getting an overhauled graphics and character customisation system, as that would also redound to the benefit of the male Viera model itself, later on.

If they leave it beyond 6.0, it's too late and we're already going to be hearing news of their next MMO project, I reckon.

I did find it intriguing that Yoshi P himself broached the issue during the interview with Ayumi Namae, but their current stance is they're still researching ways to deal with the asset conversion cost-effectively, and are also holding off till later before revising the minimum PC spec. This interview provides interesting context for those who aren't familiar with the topic.

Q: Nvidia just announced their new "RTX" GPU series. As PC graphical processing power improves, game graphics will become richer as well. Is there a chance of FFXIV getting higher graphics settings?

Yoshida: I get asked this a lot lately. The other day it was in China, so I guess it might be a worldwide topic of interest. If you're asking me if there's a possibility in the future, then the answer is probably yes, there is. But if you're asking if we have it planned right now, the answer is no. We don't have anything planned and it's not in any of our milestones.

The reason is very clear. Of course, BD5 is researching and working on new graphics. We can't distance ourselves from the latest game development techniques, so we're doing our own tests as well. But FFXIV already has 20,000 assets for equipment alone, and I don't even want to think about how much it would cost to convert all of them to the new graphics pipeline.

Since FFXIV had PS3 support, its graphics technology is 2 generations behind. If we had high poly models/hi-res textures ((unclear)) then we could just swap them out, but we don't. A lot of things were created low poly/low-res from the start for cost-saving, so we would have to recreate all of them in order for the improved graphics to look good.

Some people say that if we don't spend those costs now then we won't be competitive with other games, but right now, we're still plenty competitive within the MMO genre, so there's no need to rush yet. Plus, we have to measure what percentage of players are actually using these new GPUs. And so long as FFXIV continues to support the PS4, I absolutely want to avoid mixing the graphics pipelines. If that's the case, then we can't focus solely on the PC, and it's hard to consider it until, say, the PS4 is replaced by the next generation. Right now, I think our priority should be figuring out how to more efficiently create lots of assets.

Q: Does your graphics R&D include the eventual PS5?

Yoshida: Rather than specs, we're researching where the graphical trends are going. Like, what we absolutely need to use in order to stand a chance against the West. We have staff speaking at CEDEC too, and their research is quite deep. If you do your research well, then you'll be able to handle any hardware specs that come out, so we're looking at the technology base rather than specs.

Q: FFXIV has realistic-style graphics, so you have to keep up with the latest trends. Are you jealous of cel-shaded games because it's not as strict for them?

Yoshida: It wasn't my idea to turn FF into an MMO, but ever since I took over, I've felt that we have to show off that we're an FF game. I'm not jealous of other games. We like high-end games and want to play games like that, so we think about things like using more bones, making the movements smoother, making long hair flow better, etc.

But if we did those things, then we'd only be able to add 2/3 the amount of equipment per patch. Volume is part of quality, so we can't let that drop either. It's a double-edged sword. Our current assignment is to keep researching how we can efficiently create high-level assets. If the timing works out, then maybe we'll be able to upgrade the graphics.

Since then, the updates have basically been 1) Yoshi's comment during the panel with Ayumi Namae, 2) comments during the guest meetings with Yoshi stating they want to work on character customisation and 3) comments to the effect that they're still reviewing how they will go about all this. So, nothing concrete as yet.

[programcanaan]

If they wanted to make elezen more popular, theyre gonna have to fix the over all proportions and aesthetics of the model. While most of us can agree that the giraffe neck is a problem, it goes beyond just that. The proportions are semi shot for the male elezen, and somewhat shot for the female elezen so that it creates a weird stretch elongated look that doesnt look natural. Just as a point:




These are quick photoshop edits I did to fix the models proportions. There are a few things to note. First, the head/body ratio is completely off. The head appears to small for the body size; The fix would be a slightly larger head size. The obvious neck issue is also a problem (its more pronounced in males than females). To fix it, theyd need to first make sure it doesnt taper off like it does when the head turns, but also to shorten it. Other points to address is to make sure the traps arent to big and hte shoulders sit higher on the frame instead of looking like they hang off, and to fix the male torso. As a point, the male torso appears semi-effeminate due to how much the waist tapers in and then bows back out quite a bit at the hips. Tinkering with the shoulders and pecks proportions would fix some of the torso proportions overall.

Lastly, and this is more noticeable on female models, is youd need to 'slim' the model down. It's to broad for the proportions. You can simulate vertical elegance by making models slimmer overall.

I feel proportions more like this would make elezen a lot more appealing to the broader public. However, changes like this would require a lot of work. I outlined this months ago regarding the lalafell models. Modifying the mesh will mean modifying the rig and the weights. It's not like they can just use the liquify tool in Photoshop and make things all better. It's because of hte amount of work even semi-subtle changes can cause a lot of problems. Not to mention how armor then works, animations, etc. I do agree that they should be fixed (because besides lalafells, Elezens have the wonkiest bodies IMO) but this kind of work is almost on the same level as designing a new race. So we probably wont see this kind of thing for a looong time, if at all. A solution COULD be to create male viera and swap heads, but even that isnt so clean cut, as itd probably end up being the same amount of work. Now thta I think of it, could be why they said Hrothgar/viera would be the last race. Maybe they do want to update player models.

What went wrong???

[SoleilAlphi]

If they wanted to make elezen more popular, theyre gonna have to fix the over all proportions and aesthetics of the model. While most of us can agree that the giraffe neck is a problem, it goes beyond just that. The proportions are semi shot for the male elezen, and somewhat shot for the female elezen so that it creates a weird stretch elongated look that doesnt look natural. Just as a point:




These are quick photoshop edits I did to fix the models proportions. There are a few things to note. First, the head/body ratio is completely off. The head appears to small for the body size; The fix would be a slightly larger head size. The obvious neck issue is also a problem (its more pronounced in males than females). To fix it, theyd need to first make sure it doesnt taper off like it does when the head turns, but also to shorten it. Other points to address is to make sure the traps arent to big and hte shoulders sit higher on the frame instead of looking like they hang off, and to fix the male torso. As a point, the male torso appears semi-effeminate due to how much the waist tapers in and then bows back out quite a bit at the hips. Tinkering with the shoulders and pecks proportions would fix some of the torso proportions overall.

Lastly, and this is more noticeable on female models, is youd need to 'slim' the model down. It's to broad for the proportions. You can simulate vertical elegance by making models slimmer overall.

I feel proportions more like this would make elezen a lot more appealing to the broader public. However, changes like this would require a lot of work. I outlined this months ago regarding the lalafell models. Modifying the mesh will mean modifying the rig and the weights. It's not like they can just use the liquify tool in Photoshop and make things all better. It's because of hte amount of work even semi-subtle changes can cause a lot of problems. Not to mention how armor then works, animations, etc. I do agree that they should be fixed (because besides lalafells, Elezens have the wonkiest bodies IMO) but this kind of work is almost on the same level as designing a new race. So we probably wont see this kind of thing for a looong time, if at all. A solution COULD be to create male viera and swap heads, but even that isnt so clean cut, as itd probably end up being the same amount of work. Now thta I think of it, could be why they said Hrothgar/viera would be the last race. Maybe they do want to update player models.

can people for the love of god stop fricking say elezens need "fixing"? seriously, always the elezen to be singled out. Fix lalas, they look like potatoes. See what I did there? For the hundreth time, the neck and shoulders are CHARACTERISTICS of the race, they are not hyurs and do not need hyur proportions. Yoshi P has ever said the elezens are disproportionate and need "fixing"? NO. NEVER. All ot will accomplish is making people who currently play elezen angry at having their characters changed. Would you like to have your lala/ whatever other race suddenly changed? I guess not.

as for male viera, I sure hope if they ever implement them that their structure is similar to elezen/au ra

[Melichoir]

snip

I actually addressed lalafells months ago with similar critiques.

The lalafell clipping issues is just a product of their overall design. Pretty much you have a character model which is physically wider at the hips than shoulders in a substantial way. To get the "full range of motion" youd need on Lalas to hold weapons and do emotes, clipping will naturally occur. The issue would be rectified by actually broadening the shoulders a little bit, but in doing so, you square up their figure (to they become tiny bricks instead of potatoes). For female models, this would look even worse. This would then be resolved by applying human proportions to the Lalas, which would then change the design aesthetics. I did a quick bit of photoshop garbage to illustrate my point.



if the link dont work: https://imgur.com/lkPxnla

Broadly speaking, when looking at the Lala model (F in this Case) on the left, the shoulders are to narrow. Thats why the Arms kind of lay away from the body like they do. This results in clipping though, when you think about it, because teh arms cant get a full range of motion naturally. Broadening the shoulders [2] helps resolve that problem and would help take care of clipping issues, but now you have a brick instead of a potato and it looks a little odd for female models. On Males, this wouldnt be as big an issue. This can be corrected aesthetically by adding in a bit of more humanesqe proportions (narrowing the waist and slight adjustments to hips as an example)[3]. But by this point, if youre gonna start editing the feel and anatomy of lalas, you might as well do everything and redefine legs, arms, and etc [4].

This kind of thing is easy to photoshop, but actually going in and tweaking an established model is a lot more work. You have to make sure everything that goes on that model still 'works'. This means adjusting armors, animations, rigs, and etc, just to make minor changes. Dont get me wrong. I would love models to be updated and fixed, but when they say its a lot of work, theyre not BSing us. It really is. If they decide to redo the character editor, then I would expect changes like this, but if thats not on the table, then we might just have to kind of suck it up and accept it.

Though for me personally, I actually prefer the look and feel of the editing I did on the right, over the natural design on the left. I think Lalas, from a design perspective, are to...clunky looking. You dont need them to be chiseled and perfectly defined, but subtle definition and anatomy goes a long way I feel.

In that case though, it was discussing the issues lalafell models had with clipping during some emotes and animations. The Elezen models have their own issues. Aesthetically, theyre not great. You can even look at some of the concept art and the art did not translate to 3D all that well. And more importantly, the major issue is that humans tend to look at things and readily acknowledge that something does not look 'right'. Proportinos matter, and the proportions in my opinion on elezen are not great. Worse on the male model than female, but overall not all that great. Proportions matter, regardless of hte race, and aesthetics matter too. You wouldnt say Elezen are fine if they had short stocky torsos and limbs, but huge long necks that gave them their height. Itd look ridiculous. So yeah, shoring up the model to be more pleasing aesthetically wouldnt be a bad idea. Particularly since the body type niche that the Elezen fill is the tall slim one. The current models only achieve that in very clumsy ways.

[SoleilAlphi]

Don't try to pass your personal opinion as a fact then, saying that "they need fixing" because "they are absolutely bad". It ain't so. Anyway, sorry for the off topic yall, it is tiring sometimes to always be the singled out race. Carry on