BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

[Physic]

I said it was useless in endgame because i didnt know there was a literal exploit that made it useful? My points still stand about other skills.

And yeah they used missle instead of tail screw, but if neither of those worked i dont think they could have cleared it, dps wouldnt be high enough. Also just using tail screw wouldnt make blu op because saying blu is op because they can survive due to 8 blues spamming rng is like saying 8 scholars would be op because they could spam adlo to survive tank busters. Sure ypud get a clear with a very dedicated team, but a very dedicated team can do memey stuff with current classes in current content

first, the exploit you are talking about, if it worked as you say it should, 3 successful missiles would reduce it to 12.5% health. If missile is 50% chance, with 8 mages doing it, the likelihood is 4 will land thats basically 6% health in the opening volley. That would not require incredible dps in order to defeat.

second, after that you are suggesting they should make no death skills work, even on adds. Ok, sure if they make every monster in the game immune to missile, then yeah missile will suck, but we all knew that, the point was will it be useful now.

third, its not just missile they used there that you claimed was a useless skill, diamondback, and moon flute also used to good effect.

fourth, even if missile doesnt work, why would you think they couldnt kill the monsters? They have other skills that are usefull, like rams voice, stun, petrify, and thier dps doesnt seem to be signifigantly low enough that they would be in danger.

and lastly, it shows that bluemage can infact tank and heal hard content, which is unique among dps.


You could of course say, yeah blu mage is unbalanced, it has cheesy skills which in the right situations are unfair, and it encroaches on other roles, and they should nerf these useful abilities, and make it like a regular dps, so i can enjoy the latest (not necessarily the most difficult) content. But that was not the argument you claimed.

Point is blue mage is different, it can do things no other dps can do, and it would require balancing to avoid various situational skills being OP in high level content. In order to put it into level 70 content it would have to be considerably diminished.

[BubblyBoar]

well you could use 2 blues, or a rdm and a blue. or a healer who does dps, and just uses emergency cures. The point of bringing up cure II is its their max heal spammable cure, whuch sets the upper limit of what they can heal through. The video i linked shows blu is more than capable of going through endgame content without a tank or healer, that is not something other dps can do. Which means, saying they are just dps is not that accurate

the fact that healers have a lot of heal spells is irrelevant the question has always been who is capable of doing this role in this content, with success.


Also, the vast majority of players dont even do savage level content. So they wouldnt even need to work that hard. In regular content they would just freeze groups and dps them down.

Spamming Cure 2 is not playing a healer correctly. In fact, tossing out the insta heals is exactly how you play healer will in FFXIV. Spamming your most potent heal is a waste the majority of the time. Even in basic content in dungeons, this is the case. I can go through must casual dungeons without using a single GCD heal spell because healers are effective at their jobs. BLU is not. Just because it has a big number heal doesn't mean it is a healer. It lacks healer tools, full stop. The same goes for tanking. Lvl 50 content is extremely basic and most of it can be brute forced. Saying that a BLU can tank or heal in it doesn't make it a tank or a healer. It IS a DPS, even the game defines it as such. Saying that it's not is just denying reality at this point.


That said, those that want BLU in normal content and able to be in the DF are perfectly fine with the outrageous stuff like missile and tail screw to be banned from that content.

[Physic]

Spamming Cure 2 is not playing a healer correctly. In fact, tossing out the insta heals is exactly how you play healer will in FFXIV. Spamming your most potent heal is a waste the majority of the time. Even in basic content in dungeons, this is the case. I can go through must casual dungeons without using a single GCD heal spell because healers are effective at their jobs. BLU is not. Just because it has a big number heal doesn't mean it is a healer. It lacks healer tools, full stop. The same goes for tanking. Lvl 50 content is extremely basic and most of it can be brute forced. Saying that a BLU can tank or heal in it doesn't make it a tank or a healer. It IS a DPS, even the game defines it as such. Saying that it's not is just denying reality at this point.


That said, those that want BLU in normal content and able to be in the DF are perfectly fine with the outrageous stuff like missile and tail screw to be banned from that content.

i am not saying you should play a regular healer the way you play blue mage, i am saying blue mage can do the job with the skills they have.






and bahamut/coils is not basic, its savage level content. Also, blu mage is only 50 right now, it will have more abilities later.


And yeah, they can ban every skill from blue mage that isnt a generic damage skill, and then it will be crap. But regardless SE has no intention of balancing a job for duty finder, and outside duty finder. They already decided not do it.

[ReiMakoto]

first, the exploit you are talking about, if it worked as you say it should, 3 successful missiles would reduce it to 12.5% health. If missile is 50% chance, with 8 mages doing it, the likelihood is 4 will land thats basically 6% health in the opening volley. That would not require incredible dps in order to defeat.

second, after that you are suggesting they should make no death skills work, even on adds. Ok, sure if they make every monster in the game immune to missile, then yeah missile will suck, but we all knew that, the point was will it be useful now.

third, its not just missile they used there that you claimed was a useless skill, diamondback, and moon flute also used to good effect.

fourth, even if missile doesnt work, why would you think they couldnt kill the monsters? They have other skills that are usefull, like rams voice, stun, petrify, and thier dps doesnt seem to be signifigantly low enough that they would be in danger.

and lastly, it shows that bluemage can infact tank and heal hard content, which is unique among dps.


You could of course say, yeah blu mage is unbalanced, it has cheesy skills which in the right situations are unfair, and it encroaches on other roles, and they should nerf these useful abilities, and make it like a regular dps, so i can enjoy the latest (not necessarily the most difficult) content. But that was not the argument you claimed.

Point is blue mage is different, it can do things no other dps can do, and it would require balancing to avoid various situational skills being OP in high level content. In order to put it into level 70 content it would have to be considerably diminished.

My point is BLU is not unique and different because non traditional team comp runs of things have been a thing since arr. Yes a successful salvo will put an add on low health, you know what else will? A team focusing properly. You know what is also random chance than can cheese mechanics, crit adlo. These things do not exclude blu. Youve yet to tell me how 8 blus doing something is more impressive than 8 tanks doing something as well. Yes they used diamondback to good effect as should be expected of any other non traditional team run, also yea they wouldnt have had the dps to kill the adds, freeze and stun wouldnt be enough to be able to get them dead (cos theyre immune to stun, dunno about petrify tho id have to check.). Point im making is (as it always has been) that blu having these things is in no way mutually exclusive to it being a job that can be used in raids, much like how an 8 scholar or 8 tank team does not make them excluded from raids or endgame. Whilst these skills can be used in all blu meme runs, that doesnt make them unbalanced for df/raids by default. Take clemency and vercure for example, these skills are practically never used in high end play, yet they are used commonly in untraditional/solo. It doesnt justify the class restriction on BLU

[Physic]

My point is BLU is not unique and different because non traditional team comp runs of things have been a thing since arr. Yes a successful salvo will put an add on low health, you know what else will? A team focusing properly. You know what is also random chance than can cheese mechanics, crit adlo. These things do not exclude blu. Youve yet to tell me how 8 blus doing something is more impressive than 8 tanks doing something as well. Yes they used diamondback to good effect as should be expected of any other non traditional team run, also yea they wouldnt have had the dps to kill the adds, freeze and stun wouldnt be enough to be able to get them dead (cos theyre immune to stun, dunno about petrify tho id have to check.). Point im making is (as it always has been) that blu having these things is in no way mutually exclusive to it being a job that can be used in raids, much like how an 8 scholar or 8 tank team does not make them excluded from raids or endgame. Whilst these skills can be used in all blu meme runs, that doesnt make them unbalanced for df/raids by default. Take clemency and vercure for example, these skills are practically never used in high end play, yet they are used commonly in untraditional/solo. It doesnt justify the class restriction on BLU

thier dps isnt drastically low, and if they can tank bahamut, they can tank his adds. they finished this run 3-4 minutes faster than an average bahamut run.




I think what it ultimately comes down to is your concept of balance is very different than SE. The things that you think people would be fine with, are not the things they think people will be fine with.

in my experience, the communities of mmo are far less forgiving of these kinds of things than you are. It would be more interesting if SE didnt care about some of these things, or wasnt married to a rigid role system, or didnt worry if metas they hadnt planned on formed. But they clearly do care.

[BubblyBoar]

i am not saying you should play a regular healer the way you play blue mage, i am saying blue mage can do the job with the skills they have.






and bahamut/coils is not basic, its savage level content. Also, blu mage is only 50 right now, it will have more abilities later.


And yeah, they can ban every skill from blue mage that isnt a generic damage skill, and then it will be crap. But regardless SE has no intention of balancing a job for duty finder, and outside duty finder. They already decided not do it.

Except that it can't, I provided those examples earlier in our conversation. In fact, BLU can't do most of what a healer needs to do. A BLU can't remove your debuffs. It can't get you to full from one HP, it can't rez you, it cant provide regens, it can't provide shields, it cant cast a protect. The only thing it CAN do is waste a GCD to cast an AoE heal as long as it had a decent amount of HP left. Those situations are extremely limited and not conducive to what a healer needs to do. Lvl 50 content does not reveal this fact because it has far fewer healer mechanics than expansion content.



Not every skill that isn't a damage skill needs to be disallowed from the DF, just the obviously broken stuff. It's like you don't know how the roles in FFXIV work.

[Physic]

Except that it can't, I provided those examples earlier in our conversation. In fact, BLU can't do most of what a healer needs to do. A BLU can't remove your debuffs. It can't get you to full from one HP, it can't rez you, it cant provide regens, it can't provide shields, it cant cast a protect. The only thing it CAN do is waste a GCD to cast an AoE heal as long as it had a decent amount of HP left. Those situations are extremely limited and not conducive to what a healer needs to do. Lvl 50 content does not reveal this fact because it has far fewer healer mechanics than expansion content.



Not every skill that isn't a damage skill needs to be disallowed from the DF, just the obviously broken stuff. It's like you don't know how the roles in FFXIV work.

Eehhh your concept of balance, job design, auto grouping, etc seems to be drastically different than SE's. I dont things would work out the way you seem to be presenting in your ideas.

[BubblyBoar]

But SE is the one that called BLU a DPS, so it's perfectly in line with what the dev consider BLU to be. I think you are the one that is confused.

[Kalise]

I still think it's hilarious how this little argument is going on...

"No other DPS is as capable at tanking and pumping out heals as BLU"

Yeah, no shit. No other DPS was designed so as to not be able to be part of normal groups and then was created in a way so as to be able to do meme groups with 4/8 of the same job.

Literally the reason why BLU has a Tank stance is because it was designed to participate in meme parties full of BLU so someone has to "Tank"

Literally the reason why BLU has such (Potentially) high healing output is because it was designed to participate in meme parties full of BLU so there needs to be healing (Also, with everyone being able to use WW it helps mitigate the fact that it becomes terrible when the user is low on HP due to if multiple people cast it you get exponential increase of healing output I.e. 5% max life > 10% max life > 20% max life > 40% max life oh look everyone's full)

BLU didn't have to be designed around meme compositions. If it wasn't you can be damn sure that Mighty Guard would just be a CD skill similar to BRD's Troubadour granting mitigation (Or a replica of Tank T2 LB which was called Mighty Guard until BLU was implemented). You'd also be unlikely to see them with White Wind in its current iteration, either the skill would have a cooldown or the healing output would be dramatically less.

Saying "OMG look how OP they are, they can do meme compositions! So stronk!" is not a convincing argument when this is due to intentional design choices that were made AFTER having already excluded them from duties.

It's not like Mighty Guard and White Wind were made in their current iteration and then the Devs were like "Well, crap... Seems like they might not fit into normal parties... Better limit the job!" no, it was literally the other way around where they already made the decision to limit the job and were like "Huh... What can we do to let players do anything at all with the job? Oh, maybe we can let them do meme compositions! Lets make some silly Tank Stance and Healing skills!"

[Physic]

I still think it's hilarious how this little argument is going on...

"No other DPS is as capable at tanking and pumping out heals as BLU"

Yeah, no shit. No other DPS was designed so as to not be able to be part of normal groups and then was created in a way so as to be able to do meme groups with 4/8 of the same job.

Literally the reason why BLU has a Tank stance is because it was designed to participate in meme parties full of BLU so someone has to "Tank"

Literally the reason why BLU has such (Potentially) high healing output is because it was designed to participate in meme parties full of BLU so there needs to be healing (Also, with everyone being able to use WW it helps mitigate the fact that it becomes terrible when the user is low on HP due to if multiple people cast it you get exponential increase of healing output I.e. 5% max life > 10% max life > 20% max life > 40% max life oh look everyone's full)

BLU didn't have to be designed around meme compositions. If it wasn't you can be damn sure that Mighty Guard would just be a CD skill similar to BRD's Troubadour granting mitigation (Or a replica of Tank T2 LB which was called Mighty Guard until BLU was implemented). You'd also be unlikely to see them with White Wind in its current iteration, either the skill would have a cooldown or the healing output would be dramatically less.

Saying "OMG look how OP they are, they can do meme compositions! So stronk!" is not a convincing argument when this is due to intentional design choices that were made AFTER having already excluded them from duties.

It's not like Mighty Guard and White Wind were made in their current iteration and then the Devs were like "Well, crap... Seems like they might not fit into normal parties... Better limit the job!" no, it was literally the other way around where they already made the decision to limit the job and were like "Huh... What can we do to let players do anything at all with the job? Oh, maybe we can let them do meme compositions! Lets make some silly Tank Stance and Healing skills!"

they were designed differently from other dps, is my point. People claim they are normal dps, with close to normal balance. Yes its obvious they designed blu differently because they werent going to be used in parties which always had duty finder roles, and thats one of the things that makes it entertaining. Blu can adapt to all sorts of crazy situations, on the fly, they look at a fight tactically, and have a variety of different ways to deal with dps/heals/mitigation, instead of standard seperation.

to be clear my view has never been it would be impossible to make some job, call it a blue mage and make it into anything they wanted it to be. My view is that by being seperate from duty finder blue creates unique choices, playstyles, party compositions, and greater potential, while staying truer to the common concepts of what blue mage is about, than if it had to be a regular duty finder dps, with all the design choices SE requires for duty finder standard roles.


and because of this, its more fun, i look forward to them growing and expanding, and cant wait for more jobs that break the mold. Finally classes not designed to deficient at recovery,mitigation, or damage for the sake of the duty finder.


its a bit odd to call it a meme Group, when as you pointed out, they are designed to be able to take on high end content in all sorts of different party compositions. This isnt an accident of fate for kicks, this is the versatility designed into the class.