What if we could "Champion" jobs?

[kidalutz]

What I mean by this, is what if it was possible to use a max level job to earn experience towards another job?

So, say you have like a level 70 SAM and want to level up a MNK. Instead of trying to slog through level 1-70 (Much of it being dead) on the MNK you could instead continue playing on your SAM after having chosen to "Champion" MNK and earn MNK experience.

The way I see this working, is everything becomes level sync'd experience.

For example, if your MNK is level 5 and you kill a level 70 enemy on your level 70 SAM you'd get MNK experience as if it was a level 5 enemy. If you kill a level 71 enemy as SAM you'd get MNK experience as if it was a level 6 enemy. (Side note: Yes I'm aware that level 5 MNK would be PGL)

This would be the same for quests/duties/PotD/HoH etc.

Thus would inhibit any sort of power leveling shenanigans where you grind out high level dungeons for ridiculous experience gains at levels 1-60, or other such exploitative potentials.

The main downside I see is the whole "But then we get high level players who don't know how to play the jobs!!" though, this isn't a new phenomena given the state of Jump Potions and PotD/HoH spam that often leads players to be wholly unaware on how to play the game...

The other side of things is potentially causing more Tank/Healer players in DF to get fast queues to level up DPS jobs. Though, this isn't necessarily a bad thing given the state of DF queues...

While I get the intent behind the idea. the reality is it leaves you with a bunch of people that dont know thier classes because they never had to actually level through the slog and learn thier rotations.

[Kalise]

People already not knowing how to play their jobs with things that are currently in the game isn't really a very good argument for why something like that should be implemented.

It's not an argument for why something like this SHOULD be implemented.

However, it exists as a counterpoint to why something like this SHOULDN'T be implemented.

I.e. If the issue already occurs due to pre-existing features, it can't be used as a reason why this particular feature shouldn't be added.

It would only give them yet another way to be completely oblivious of how to play.

The solution to which, is to also implement something that teaches people how to play, irregardless of if they level up in MSQ spamming Blizzard I, use a Jump-Potion, Farm PotD/HoH etc.

I also doubt it would get more tanks/healers in the duty finder queues; it'll probably be the opposite, people still playing their DPS classes and getting easy levels for tank/healer without any of the work or stress of playing them.

I doubt that would be the case. Given that DPS mains already tend to prefer PotD/HoH for leveling due to queue timers being more favourable.

Meanwhile, you'd have Tank/Healer mains who would get easier leveling of DPS jobs by running DF's as Tanks/Healers which they have no qualms about doing.

And I don't know what game you're playing, but content from level 1 to 70 isn't "dead". That makes literally no sense to say everything except endgame has no one playing it. People are always doing dungeons, raids, etc. and running around in early zones. Maybe if you wander around a bit instead of AFKing in Rhalgr's Reach you'd see that.

You're assuming I AFK in Rhalgr's Reach. I spend literally no time in Rhalgr's Reach (Or any city for that matter) outside of accessing some vendors.

I level through the open world, doing Hunts, Beast Tribe dailies and FATEs.

1-60 is dead. There is only a few newbies in ARR content and that's about it. No-one does ARR/HW FATEs (Even SB FATEs you only occasionally see people doing the Twist of Fate ones)

Rarely does anyone do the lower level duties outside the MSQ required ones either.

I say this as someone who's got all but 3 jobs to level 70 at the moment, soon to be completing the final ones.

Maybe it's different on your server. But in my experience, there's very few people to be seen outside of SB Beast Tribe dailies and inside cities. (Even with queues to log in suggesting that the server is full of people)

But beyond that I'm not really sure why you would even bother levelling a class if you're not interested in putting the time in.

Well, due to a number of factors:

1) Some (I.e. Most) jobs are just horrible to play until higher levels when they get their critical skills to actually function.

2) There are ways to make leveling go more smoothly if you can access content on your main job (Such as Expert Roulettes, a wider range of 50/60 and Leveling Roulette duties)

It's the same reasoning for why Jump Potions exist. Maybe you want to play X Job, but due to crappy balancing of skill distribution, leveling it sucks. Maybe you want to work on leveling your secondary job while running stuff to gear up your main?

I'm not fond of this idea. Part of leveling a Job is learning how to use it, and leveling is quite simple. Doesn't that kind of devalue your experience while playing?

Tell that to the number of times I had to completely re-learn several jobs because of getting to a level where prior rotations and skill usages become irrelevant in favour of new ones that were unlocked by a single critical skill.

Some jobs you can't even start to learn until 60+ because that's when you get the core mechanics the job is designed around.

I have no qualms about learning to play new jobs, I've done it for 13/16 jobs with the last three I have to wait a bit longer until I unlock their 60+ skills that they need to actually perform properly.

Just, I learn nothing (Except bad habits... I still occasionally mess up my MCH rotations because I'm used to using a leveling combo before getting Barrel Stabilizer and Flamethrower...) when playing an incomplete job as well as feel awkward when I have to decide between playing one of my max level jobs and leveling this other job I want to also play.

[Fland]

So, say you have like a level 70 SAM and want to level up a MNK. Instead of trying to slog through level 1-70 (Much of it being dead) on the MNK you could instead continue playing on your SAM after having chosen to "Champion" MNK and earn MNK experience.

The way I see this working, is everything becomes level sync'd experience.

For example, if your MNK is level 5 and you kill a level 70 enemy on your level 70 SAM you'd get MNK experience as if it was a level 5 enemy. If you kill a level 71 enemy as SAM you'd get MNK experience as if it was a level 6 enemy. (Side note: Yes I'm aware that level 5 MNK would be PGL)

This would be the same for quests/duties/PotD/HoH etc.

Thus would inhibit any sort of power leveling shenanigans where you grind out high level dungeons for ridiculous experience gains at levels 1-60, or other such exploitative potentials.

Uhm... isn't what you're suggesting also a form of power leveling exploitation?

[Rosentretter]

The solution to which, is to also implement something that teaches people how to play, irregardless of if they level up in MSQ spamming Blizzard I, use a Jump-Potion, Farm PotD/HoH, etc

People already have the Hall of the Novice, which is very basic, true that, but they still ignore it, and because of that, they suck.

[Vaer]

I think if I had to choose being able to earn rested EXP would be better or some kind of exp boost potion as a any roulette reward. (would have to be DoW/DoM only since crafters can eat through rested) So you would play on any max level job and start earning rested EXP/pots. That way you still have to play the actual job to level but you get an EXP boost in exchange for helping others doing dungeons/end game content.

[Kalise]

Uhm... isn't what you're suggesting also a form of power leveling exploitation?

Not particularly.

Given that running a dungeon as a level 70 would then only give experience to the "Championed" job at the same rate as if you did a dungeon on that job. Perhaps even less due to potential lack of chain bonus due to level sync.

My idea is that all experience gains are scaled down to the appropriate level of the job you're leveling. So, the only difference between grinding on your max level job and on the job you're leveling, is that your max level job has more opportunities for content it can participate in.

This might have some advantages in terms of leveling speed (Such as being able to do SB Hunts and get daily 50/60 Roulette, 70 Roulette and Expert Roulette experience bonuses on jobs that are lower level) but not drastically.

[DrWho2010]

this is game that is ongoing - i.e. for the foreseeable future it is never going to go away. giving people means to finish things faster is not something they would want to implement. levelling is too easy in the game already. doing all your roulettes gives a level easily in a day.

[Bright-Flower]

Nah. Want to level a job play the job. Leveling a dps and don't like dungeon queue times? Go to POTD/HoH. I don't see anything good coming out of this.

[LauraAdalena]

Oh boy, I love these kinds of threads. The discussions I get to have are elating.

...The solution to which, is to also implement something that teaches people how to play, irregardless of if they level up in MSQ spamming Blizzard I, use a Jump-Potion, Farm PotD/HoH etc.

How most players think: "Man, I should really learn how to play this job..."

How these kinds of players think: "Man, my MP is draining when I use fire. This isn't fun or easy. Spamming blizzard is easy. I don't have to put as much work in!"

Teaching these kinds of players how to play won't do much unless you can show them how playing better helps them in the long run. They don't understand that doing more damage makes things go faster.

I doubt that would be the case. Given that DPS mains already tend to prefer PotD/HoH for leveling due to queue timers being more favourable.

Meanwhile, you'd have Tank/Healer mains who would get easier leveling of DPS jobs by running DF's as Tanks/Healers which they have no qualms about doing.

This is harder to say. Because of the over-saturation of DPS in POTD/HOH I tend to avoid doing those for DPS. I tend to do healers or tanks. Whether the average player sees this is harder to say than even if DPS mains will do that. On top of that, you also just shot yourself in the foot there given that means more of the DPS players will then abandon DF for POTD/HOH given your information that the shorter queues are preferential to the leveling of DPS than DF, meaning there'd be a drought of DPS in leveling content 1 to 70 if this were implemented.

Also, false. Healers and tanks would not find this preferential if only a small minority of DPS were left. Mostly because those are the ones who don't care either way and won't stop doing DF regardless, therefore leaving a pretty paltry sum of people who will end up being a high majority bad players by statistics.

You're assuming I AFK in Rhalgr's Reach. I spend literally no time in Rhalgr's Reach (Or any city for that matter) outside of accessing some vendors.

Yes he assumed. But the sentiment is still the same in that "you don't seem to actually look around, instead hang around in one place."

I level through the open world, doing Hunts, Beast Tribe dailies and FATEs.

This is where you start to show your true colors. You're starting to come off as high-and-mighty by the way you state this. Almost sounding like you are better because you do this. Congratulations.

1-60 is dead. There is only a few newbies in ARR content and that's about it. No-one does ARR/HW FATEs (Even SB FATEs you only occasionally see people doing the Twist of Fate ones)

Rarely does anyone do the lower level duties outside the MSQ required ones either.

I say this as someone who's got all but 3 jobs to level 70 at the moment, soon to be completing the final ones.

And as someone who leveled from 1-60 in almost every class this time around Heavensward, this content is not dead. Maybe this is a Primal thing, but on Aether I've never had any of the issues you are talking about. Just the other day I helped a friend level their Red Mage to 60 and got really quick queues. If you think the content is dead, you've never seen Crystal Tower back before Alliance Raid Roulette. That was dead. You had to get a PF just to run it, and even worse sometimes you'd never fill that PF and this was before you could do alliance raid PFs so you had to just hope to god that because you had a full alliance you'd rig the DF into giving a full party.

Maybe it's different on your server. But in my experience, there's very few people to be seen outside of SB Beast Tribe dailies and inside cities. (Even with queues to log in suggesting that the server is full of people)

How big is Cerberus? Just asking. Because this sounds almost like Cerberus is a very small server in the middle of a content drought and like you've not actually queued for the content you are claiming is dead.

Well, due to a number of factors:

1) Some (I.e. Most) jobs are just horrible to play until higher levels when they get their critical skills to actually function.

This is something I agree on. However, this does not mean you can't learn basics of the job by leveling it. What I would like is SE to stop making the most important skill (BLM = Fire 4, MCH = Flamethrower, Dragoon = Geirskogul/Life of the Dragon) to the last level of the expansion meaning you have to completely relearn the class just to do end-level content.

2) There are ways to make leveling go more smoothly if you can access content on your main job (Such as Expert Roulettes, a wider range of 50/60 and Leveling Roulette duties)

This I don't agree on. Level 70 content should be earned and learned to be good at. If they wanted to implement a championing system I'd like it if they limited it almost like...

It's the same reasoning for why Jump Potions exist. Maybe you want to play X Job, but due to crappy balancing of skill distribution, leveling it sucks. Maybe you want to work on leveling your secondary job while running stuff to gear up your main?

Jump Potions! Jump potions are limited to level 60 for this exact reason. They were not intended for markets such as the NA or EU markets, but JP and CN/SK markets. However, they knew they'd have to implement it differently if they did it for the other markets (NA and EU) and that was more work. So instead they made it cap you at 60 so you could enjoy mostly the new stuff from Stormblood on. The idea was that JP, CN, and SK are all markets where they like to research and understand why the class is this way, what it does, and how to play it so they play optimally and don't have to put hours into actually playing the game to learn it. Understandably, there will always be a minority of players in those markets that don't, but NA/EU don't always want to do that. The biggest bit of irritation for Jump Potions was that they were going to have a required "Hall of the Intermediate" to teach you the job but they scrapped the idea in favor of other content they were struggling with at the time. Another key detail is that just because they'd get there doesn't mean it won't stop the player from not learning the class.

In short: The Jump Potion is exactly the reason this shouldn't be implemented because it'd cause the same problem the jump potion has caused, and people who don't want to put that effort into the class won't care about a "Championing" system anyway.

... when playing an incomplete job as well as feel awkward when I have to decide between playing one of my max level jobs and leveling this other job I want to also play.

I'm going to end with cutting most of your rant as I addressed it earlier that I agree with this. However, this doesn't solve the issue that some players won't even put the effort into learning even if they are taught it. Someone in this thread already pointed out that The Hall of the Novice teaches the very basics, gives amazing rewards (including a ring that increases exp that can be used on any class that saves time on ring slots for a while), and they still ignore it.

TL;DR

"Champtioning" will cause more DF issues because of POTD and HOH being the "preferred way to level a DPS due to queue times"

Players who don't want to put in the effort because it's easier to not, and should be shown how putting in effort affects things rather than taught how to play.

Jump Potions for NA/EU were a mistake, and most agree that they don't work with the general audience who plays FFXIV in those areas.

DF 1-60 is not dead, stop saying it. (Also, people can tell that you must be BSing about the "DF being dead for 1-60" because all three of your classes left, according to the Lodestone, are 3 DPS above 60, and if your claims are right then you don't even level through DF so why do you care? If you did get to 60 with just DPS and DF in the middle of a content drought, that might be why.)

And I agree that the way classes are established and moves are learned is jank and should be changed, pelase SE.

[Kalise]

How most players think: "Man, I should really learn how to play this job..."

How these kinds of players think: "Man, my MP is draining when I use fire. This isn't fun or easy. Spamming blizzard is easy. I don't have to put as much work in!"

Teaching these kinds of players how to play won't do much unless you can show them how playing better helps them in the long run. They don't understand that doing more damage makes things go faster.

None of this is related directly to being able to level a job using their main job. In fact, it would be better if they learned how their main job worked (Thus underlying concepts behind the game) so they can level faster.

The issue of people not learning (And/or not wanting to learn) how to play the game is a fundamental issue that is not directly tied to any form of leveling system. You can easily get people who leveled "Normally" through MSQ and DF spam that still don't know how to play the game, just as you can from people using Jump Potions, spamming Deep Dungeons or would get from people using this "Championing" method to gain alternate job experiences on a max level job.

This is harder to say. Because of the over-saturation of DPS in POTD/HOH I tend to avoid doing those for DPS. I tend to do healers or tanks. Whether the average player sees this is harder to say than even if DPS mains will do that. On top of that, you also just shot yourself in the foot there given that means more of the DPS players will then abandon DF for POTD/HOH given your information that the shorter queues are preferential to the leveling of DPS than DF, meaning there'd be a drought of DPS in leveling content 1 to 70 if this were implemented.

What on earth are you on about?

People level DPS in PotD/HoH because it doesn't give a damn about party composition. Meaning that DPS have the same queue times as Healers and Tanks in that content.

Due to these short queues, Deep Dungeons are the most efficient places to farm for leveling DPS jobs.

Tanks and Healers get short queues in regular DF content, so they are better off farming DF content because DF content is higher yield and is only made less worth if you have long queue times.

If players can now level their DPS jobs by playing Tanks/Healers in DF content, which will be more efficient than spamming Deep Dungeons as a DPS, why would people suddenly hop into more Deep Dungeons?

Yes he assumed. But the sentiment is still the same in that "you don't seem to actually look around, instead hang around in one place."

The sentiment is still false. Since I actively engage in content across multiple zones in the overworld as I mentioned right after and will respond to your laughable retort you made in regards to it.

This is where you start to show your true colors. You're starting to come off as high-and-mighty by the way you state this. Almost sounding like you are better because you do this. Congratulations.

Stating I do this things is not to come across as "Holier than thou" but merely to reinforce my position that I do actually engage in the game, so Mr "Lul just don't afk in Rhalgr's Reach" can understand that when I'm making reference to pre-60 content being mostly dead, it's because that's what I see and not just because I'm sitting around in one place and spamming DF.

And as someone who leveled from 1-60 in almost every class this time around Heavensward, this content is not dead. Maybe this is a Primal thing, but on Aether I've never had any of the issues you are talking about.

As someone who level 1-70 on several jobs throughout SB, the content is dead.

Maybe it's a Chaos thing (Since, P.S. I'm in Chaos not Primal) but I don't see anyone in zones outside specifically SB Beast Tribe dailies and SB Hunts and a few sprouts in level 1-15 zones.

How big is Cerberus? Just asking. Because this sounds almost like Cerberus is a very small server in the middle of a content drought and like you've not actually queued for the content you are claiming is dead.

According to https://ffxivcensus.com/#rat-eu Cerberus is one of the more populated servers.

In short: The Jump Potion is exactly the reason this shouldn't be implemented because it'd cause the same problem the jump potion has caused, and people who don't want to put that effort into the class won't care about a "Championing" system anyway.

Well, surely that's defeating your own argument?

People who won't put the effort into a class to learn it, won't bother grinding out the levels manually irregardless of whether they do it on the class or via "Championing". Thus that reduces the number of people who'll use the "Championing" system to level classes and start playing them without knowing how to.

In addition, unlike Jump Potions, this "Championing" system is predicated on already having reached max level on at least 1 job to even use it (While part of the problem with Jump Potions is you can get people using it who've never even leveled to 50 let alone max level)

DF 1-60 is not dead, stop saying it. (Also, people can tell that you must be BSing about the "DF being dead for 1-60" because all three of your classes left, according to the Lodestone, are 3 DPS above 60, and if your claims are right then you don't even level through DF so why do you care? If you did get to 60 with just DPS and DF in the middle of a content drought, that might be why.)

Please remind me where I mentioned specifically that "DF is dead for 1-60"

As far as I recall, I stated 1-60 overworld is dead and non-MSQ essential DF in these level ranges are dead (Outside what can show up in Leveling Roulette)