Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

[VyelChuChu]

It looks like 1400 people have no concept of development time, cost, time it takes to make content, or budget. It's already explained why they've reached this decision and why the Fem Roe and males Miqo'te was doable 5 years ago, unlike now. But I guess people just hear the "let your voice be heard," without really thinking about what comes with it.

I've also been hearing something along the lines of "they've had two years to do ------." You don't really know what goes behind closed doors. They're killing two birds with one stone with this move (giving people both Viera and a beast-like race). Now these races need to have tens of thousands of gear pieces remade for each of them. That's literally double the amount. Now imagine if they had to do the same for both genders. Every race and gender uses a different model. So, this idea that Midlander, Highlander, Miqote, Elezen, and Au'Ra are somehow using the same base model is an outright lie. Hrothgar are not "basically Roes." And no, I'm not white knighting. I'm just being realistic as to what the dev team can do. But it's all about gimme gimme smh.

I mean, this sounds exactly like what Yoshi P said when he described and explained their decision making over the genderlock! We know, we literally all know! It's okay! Yoshi P asked us for feedback anyway! If you look through many of the posts in this thread, and the Hrothgar female thread, there are a lot of people willing to wait so as to not over-tax the dev team because of the amount of work YoshiP said it took.

Adding the two genders later on and over time ((maybe over an expac or two?)) could very possibly stretch out the work of fitting all that gear to a manageable level! It really appears that Square is rushing the devs very hard right now, but we all have seen they're capable of managing time. Not to mention once that work is done they won't be adding more races anyway!

They need time. Both time to make their decision looking over the feedback and time to figure out how it would be best to give what they decide based on that feedback.

It's not impossible for them to do this wisely.

[REPROBEAN_CHILD]

Strawmanning everyone you disagree with by pinning the weakest arguments of other people that you disagree with on them is not a rational way to go about things, either. People are allowed to give feedback on products that they are paying for. No amount of desperate flailing on your part will stop this, and the multimillion dollar corporation does not need you to shield them from criticism. If they decide it's something worth making, they'll do it. If they decide it's not worth it, they won't do it. That's all it comes down to, and part of deciding whether it's worth it for them in the long run is players making what they want heard.

It seems like you're projecting if anything else. Explain how I'm "strawmanning," when this is what I'm seeing in the forums? And there's nothing about my language that's "flailing." And for big bad "multimillion dollar corporation," you had no problem subbing to them, up to this point

It was the solution they thought was best. It being the best solution they could reach is something else and many in the playerbase do not agree that it is.



Knowingly walking into a situation where you offer rugged, muscular, beastly men alongside lithe, beautiful bunny girls is sexist whether they intended it that way or not. The flip side of that is that they decided against adding beastly women and lithe bunny boys - two things that break what you usually see.
Devs stalling for literally years on unlocking the bunny outfit because it made their male developers feel uncomfortable so it had to be delegated to their female devs is a bunch of bad things there too. And it's not unrelated to this case because guess what - bunny boys. Yoshida saying male Viera would be weird (if indeed he meant it aesthetics wise and not "we never saw them before so suddenly having them would be weird") while adding female Viera into the game is problematic.

Say what you will, the amalgamation of all those things just looks bad.

I'd like to see where it was explicit that the team were uncomfortable about the male bunny suit. And even then, what's the point in this argument? Just because you don't like their options or if you perceive it as being traditionally masculine or feminist doesn't make it sexist. Neither race is being treated better than the other.

[Anselmet]

It looks like 1400 people have no concept of development time, cost, time it takes to make content, or budget. It's already explained why they've reached this decision and why the Fem Roe and males Miqo'te was doable 5 years ago, unlike now. But I guess people just hear the "let your voice be heard," without really thinking about what comes with it.

And yet the dev team did not necessarily rule out they would never be willing to add male viera. As far as they are concerned and we here in the forums are concerned, male Viera are still in the realm of possibility. They may have explained why the did not implement male viera but many of us do not agree with their decision. Just because it does take quite a bit of resources to do something also does not mean we cannot request for it to happen. If they see how much we want something then the dev team can then decide if they want to listen to us or not. If they do, then they have to open up their resources to grant us what we want. We are consumers who pay for a subscription. I'm pretty sure they want to appease us even if it is only looking at our feedback.

I've also been hearing something along the lines of "they've had two years to do ------." You don't really know what goes behind closed doors. They're killing two birds with one stone with this move (giving people both Viera and a beast-like race). Now these races need to have tens of thousands of gear pieces remade for each of them. That's literally double the amount. Now imagine if they had to do the same for both genders. Every race and gender uses a different model. So, this idea that Midlander, Highlander, Miqote, Elezen, and Au'Ra are somehow using the same base model is an outright lie. Hrothgar are not "basically Roes." And no, I'm not white knighting. I'm just being realistic as to what the dev team can do. But it's all about gimme gimme smh.

Where is your proof that they are not 'essentially Roes'. Do you know what people mean by this statement? Because I hate to break it to you the dev team are notorious for reusing assets. For example Omega M and Omega F are made off of the Elezen skeleton. Another example? Kefka was also made off of the Elezen skeleton. Hell many Garleans such as Nero use the Elezen skeleton and some of them use a Hyur skeleton. What I am saying is that they have many bases to work off of and have done so in this game to make short cuts. I would not be surprised if Female Viera were originally made off the female elezen skeleton and just modified into a new race. And as someone has mentioned already, modders when they mod gear can often do so easily because many races share gear assets. Now imagine if they did use a male Elezen model (cut down the neck etc.) and made male Viera. The gear would most likely easily work on both races and require little resources other than helmets.

Like I am sorry, this game does have a lot of great diversity in races and gear but its all smoke and mirrors. The dev team know how to reuse what they have and only make something new when it is necessary.

[Lauront]

I'd like to see where it was explicit that the team were uncomfortable about the male bunny suit. And even then, what's the point in this argument? Just because you don't like their options or if you perceive it as being traditionally masculine or feminist doesn't make it sexist. Neither race is being treated better than the other.

That's the one thing I'll agree with you on. It's not sexist.

[Crushnight]

I just wanna point out, for those saying other genders of certain races are rare, that Roevember is a thing. So why dont we make months for the other races, lol, Let's see...

Hyur - Febhyurary
Elezen - ?
Lalafell - Lalapril
Miqo'te - Mayqo'te
Au Ra - Auragust
Viera - ?
Hrothgar - ?

Sephrothber
Janelezaury
Decieraber
? i'm not good at this XD

[Psykios]

I want lithe, elegant male Viera. I want them to be relatable in appearance to Female viera, and to have much less stark gender dimorphism than say, Au'Ra.
For the record, I play as a female Au'Ra. I like lithe, elegant, mystical-looking character designs. For me, the Miqo'te do nit quite scratch this itch, and elezen's features look to pointed and severe, while thier body proportions seem off given how pointy their facial features are.
I was going to fantasia into Male Viera, but considering what has happened, I will instead fantasia into a female Viera. I love their design, and what I see of their customization. I want a Male viera version that is closer to this type.
In general, we do not have much option for aggressive, bestial-looking females, nor do we have much option for lithe/elegant males.
I understand that the development costs would likely be prohibitive to add these races within Shadowbringers. I also understand that adding these racial options effectively extends the work of the developers who model outfits to have more work in the same, already difficult amount of time, and I understand that upon thier addition they would have that extra work forever, going forward. I want the FFXIV team to really consider that these options would add a lot to this game that otherwise the players would feel is missing. I think it is worth trying to implement for at least 6.0 and beyond.

TL;DR: i'm not unreasonable. I can wait, and I can be told "no" on this, but I would like to be told something. Fem Hrothgar and male Viera WOULD add something player will otherwise feel is missing regardless of if they play it or not, thus adding them in a reasonable amount of time for the FFXIV to not be too strained is ultimately worth it.

TL;DR2: please add male viera/fem hrothgar in a time table that is reasonale to both players and ffxiv team, or tell us "no". Either way, please be transparent about either why not, or how far you are in the process.

[Eloah]

You don't really know what goes behind closed doors. They're killing two birds with one stone with this move (giving people both Viera and a beast-like race).

That's just it though they aren't killing two birds with one stone, and they actually created problems for themselves. The uproar isn't just about the gender lock, it's a combination of things. I did explain it in an earlier post but I can repeat it hear. It's basically this.

There were 3 main points that SE had to deal with; the request for Viera, the request for a smaller/cuter male from a dimorphic race with larger females, and the request for a more beastial race. As we know know SE tried to tackle two of these at once, but failed, for several reasons.

One of the biggest reason was their manipulation of information. Had the playerbase been told Viera would be female only, when they were revealed, the responses would of been less "hostile". This event has made Yoshi-P aware that they need to be upfront with certain tidbits of info, so that fan speculation doesn't get out of hand.

In response to Hrothgar, the created fan demand for the female version since their concept is based on a race that has females very prevalent in their society. Plus instead of stating from the begining that this was done because of development issues, they used the "lore card", which while Viera might get a pass, Hrothgar do not.

The other mistake they made was pairing up the two as counterparts to one another. SE was not stereotyping when they created either race, as they have existed before being implimented into XIV. But by pairing the two up as counterparts, they perpetuated the ongoing stereotype of how women should be represented, and how men should be. Those are the key facts in the outcry from the fans.

On an additional note, regarding the smaller/cutter males. Players were projecting this idea onto male Viera, since unlike the females, have no reference point; basically they're a blank slate. That being said though, many did expect them to be similar to the concept art created. Players were also expecting them to look more feral, given their lore, which would fit with the beastial requests too. Additionally, had SE created a counterpart for the Viera that wasn't stereotyping males unintentionally, the outcry could of been mitigated as well. A good example would be the Moomba, also from VIII, seeming as how this expansion seems to be heavily inspired by VIII. The Moombas are lions, but are small, cute and beastial. If they were the opposite gendered race to Viera, I would think the backlash wouldn't of been so bad.

[Anarnee]

Listening to feedback doesn't mean they will actually do it. Yoshi-P didn't confirm nor deny the possibility of fem Hrothgar and male Viera, because he knows there'll be another backlash if he says there's no current plans. Look at what happened with the healer situation. Me white knighting would be me saying they could do no wrong and no one should ever argue with them. There's A LOT that I disagree with some of their decisions. But in terms of them making four new base models and making sure the entire game runs with them, is another story. This is including making them compatible EVERYTHING already in the game, as well as what's in the expansion. So no, I don't think you really understand, since you admit this is a 'gimme gimme' situation, rather than understanding what the dev team could actually do.

I legitimately said they were not promising us anything, I understand it doesn't mean they'll do it, but if we don't say anything about it they for sure won't because it will appear that no one wants it.

Just because I still want something despite the amount of work that will go into it, doesn't mean I don't understand. It means I want them to find the resources to make it happen. They can do it. It will be a lot of work. But they can do it, and instead of the resources going into something else, I want this to be considered as a priority.

[REPROBEAN_CHILD]

And yet the dev team did not necessarily rule out they would never be willing to add male viera. As far as they are concerned and we here in the forums are concerned, male Viera are still in the realm of possibility. They may have explained why the did not implement male viera but many of us do not agree with their decision. Just because it does take quite a bit of resources to do something also does not mean we cannot request for it to happen. If they see how much we want something then the dev team can then decide if they want to listen to us or not. If they do, then they have to open up their resources to grant us what we want. We are consumers who pay for a subscription. I'm pretty sure they want to appease us even if it is only looking at our feedback.



Where is your proof that they are not 'essentially Roes'. Do you know what people mean by this statement? Because I hate to break it to you the dev team are notorious for reusing assets. For example Omega M and Omega F are made off of the Elezen skeleton. Another example? Kefka was also made off of the Elezen skeleton. Hell many Garleans such as Nero use the Elezen skeleton and some of them use a Hyur skeleton. What I am saying is that they have many bases to work off of and have done so in this game to make short cuts. I would not be surprised if Female Viera were originally made off the female elezen skeleton and just modified into a new race. And as someone has mentioned already, modders when they mod gear can often do so easily because many races share gear assets. Now imagine if they did use a male Elezen model (cut down the neck etc.) and made male Viera. The gear would most likely easily work on both races and require little resources other than helmets.

Like I am sorry, this game does have a lot of great diversity in races and gear but its all smoke and mirrors. The dev team know how to reuse what they have and only make something new when it is necessary.

Ok. Let's say I'm wrong about the resuing model. We already know the game has a ton of reskins, recolors, and recolors of reskins. For instance, I know the Vanu Vanu is based off the Amalj'aa model. But that doesn't mean they're going to do the same for Viera and Hrothgar. Also, would you even want that? Let's say the devs, use Elezen models for Viera and Roe for Hrothgar? Then you're going to get people saying this work is lazy. People were already criticizing the Vieras for their emotes. But they're still going to have to work with A TON of gear pieces to apply to the new races. Why else do we still not have the various hemp sets?

[Kazran]

Those of the TexTools committee have shown to us that the in fact alot of races share gear models. (Males share with males) (females share with females) all the gear models for the the most part share textures too!

Let's say a modder (mods are against the rules btw) wants to edit a gear piece they only have to edit one model (for the gender they want) for it to effect midlander, elezen, Aura, and Miqote (for males at least, fem highlander shares with fem midlanders) only Roe, Male highlander and Lalafell have their own gear models. Really they only have to work on helmets!

I would never mod, but the info is out there!