Please DON'T remove the Armoury system

[Zezlar]

I'm cool with whatever as long as I can play everything. I will not play if they limit me to one class.

[Maea]

The reason I didnt play DoW/DoM class because it lack of class uniqueness... but the current improvement bring back the class uniqueness and I prefer it this way.

I know that it fun to custom your character with anything from any class... but it proved that it suck in long-run.
Yes, some people love it but yes most people don't like it either.

I didn't mean to imply that I want them to reverse class changes. I agree that reforms were needed, and greater specificity for each class has made them more engaging and easy to understand. I just don't want SE to take this to the extreme and opt for totally fixed classes/jobs that don't allow for any sort of cross-classing whatsoever. I'll make an edit to the OP to make sure this is clear.

P.S. I'll respond to additional posts at some point tonight or tomorrow.

[Vaymathias]

I do like that classes/jobs are defined by weapons though, as for cross class skills I couldn't care less about them.

That's one of the two things about it that I didn't like, that and being able to use any WS regardless of weapon.

I always felt they should redefine class from "Sword user" or "Spear user" or whatever, and choose independently what classes can use what weapons (a long with linking WS's/combos to each weapon), such as in FFXI, while giving each class abilities exclusive to them and abilities that can be cross classed.

But here's what I don't understand. Jobs are supposed to be more defined roles, but classes are VERY defined as it is. Gladiators most damaging attack doesn't let them deal much damage as they would need to, in order for them to ever be anything but a tank. LNC and THM are in the same situation as a Damage Dealers. There is currently no way that Lnc could really do anything other than deal damage. They can't be a primary healer or be a primary tank, all they can do is deal damage, and THM crush the enemies with nukes. How are jobs supposed to be more defined than that?

In order to have classes and jobs coexist in this game, they'd have to make all classes excel at nothing, and be the jack-of-all-trades, while having jobs the specialists. Or possibly have classes as being base templates for jobs, but there would be no point for that unless each class has multiple jobs tied to it.

[OMEGA_HACK]

I believe that the old Armoury system has been altered to a point wherein it must receive an altered definition, but by no means is it "destroyed" and I also believe that jobs and the armoury can coexist.

First, I believe the altered definition of the armoury system is allowing you to cross-class abilities from other jobs (given a few exclusive ones). This much is true, there are A LOT of non-exclusive CLASS abilities that other classes can benefit from.

If you want your Gladiator to deal more damage then have him/her equip some of the more damage oriented skills. That is still an option available to the classes.

On the other hand, we have jobs which will lock out the cross-class function. Limiting them to just a single particular role in a party, not being able to function as anything other than what the job entails to. That is the big difference between the two systems. One is geared for low man events / solo play, and the other is for when you have a full party and need very specific roles.

To deny this about the classes would be to deny the fact that 10 of your 25 abilities can come from another class(es).

[Vaymathias]

If you want your Gladiator to deal more damage then have him/her equip some of the more damage oriented skills. That is still an option available to the classes.

But there really are none to really make a change to gld. Sure, I can equip blood for blood, and a few one time use abilities, but they all have a long cool time, little effect, and still, gld is essentially a tank. The WS's from the other classes are only slightly better for glad for dding, but even then, Glad can never be an effective DD.

I can equip cure on to any class, but if I have to main heal with it, game over.

They would have to make serious changes to the classes.....again. Gladiator would have to get a few DD abilities that would only work with no shield equipped. THM would have to get a cure or some strong support abilities, and cnj spells damage spells would have to become a little stronger.

The class changes in 1.20 placed many of the classes into a solid role already, if they make the jobs so much better to be relevant, then classes will be obsolete.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Well yes of course every class needs to have a general "direction" or the cross into job roles would make little sense. The beauty of the Classes is that they CAN become a more multi-role unit that its counter-part, the job, can do.

But to deny that CNJ could never melee is naive, in a small party (solo or duo) I encourage that mage to melee, it does two things: 1) adds DPS 2) makes it easier to manage protective spells

The same would go for GLD would it not? If you are low manning something I would expect the GLD to try his/her hardest to provide some more DPS within their capabilities, because even if its only 10 more damage on the monster, its 10 less damage someone else has to try and make up for.

[Jennestia]

Why do you say they can't coexist? Personally I feel that they complement each other very well, since they have different applications and different strengths and weaknesses. Keeping the class system doesn't take anything away from the job system as far as I can see, and vice versa.

They can co-exist just fine because that's exactly their purpose -- Classes themselves needed a ton of work to begin with since despite what many want to believe...you simply can't balance absolute freedom, which is what the original armory system was trying to give -- too much freedom and not enough balance.

[Vaymathias]

But to deny that CNJ could never melee is naive, in a small party (solo or duo) I encourage that mage to melee, it does two things: 1) adds DPS 2) makes it easier to manage protective spells

Thinking that just because a cnj can melee at all, makes it versatile, regardless of how little damage it does, is what's naive. Now if cnj could equip itself right, boost it's melee damage enough to really be efficient at DDing, that would be a differnt story. But as it stands now, there's no reason to think that WHM won't be just as good as CNJ at melee.

As it stands right now, Glad looks to be just a PLD with the ability to use some cross class skills.

I'm one of the ones who want classes to remain, even if it's jsut for solo/duo play, but as it stands now there seems to be little reason to have them at all.

[OMEGA_HACK]

I really hate pulling from other MMOs to give/make a point but I suggest looking up some of the melee WHMs in XI, equipped properly they could out DPS some of the highest DPS-able jobs in that game...its not impossible.

And to make reference within the game, duo'd Toto-Rak (LNC and CNJ) from levels 25 (each) to 35, CNJ did engage (melee) on the monsters and made it A LOT faster (since you are under a 1hr time limit) and was worth it. Granted this was during 1.19 but I don't see why CNJ still couldn't do it now.

[Vaymathias]

I really hate pulling from other MMOs to give/make a point but I suggest looking up some of the melee WHMs in XI, equipped properly they could out DPS some of the highest DPS-able jobs in that game...its not impossible.

And to make reference within the game, duo'd Toto-Rak (LNC and CNJ) from levels 25 (each) to 35, CNJ did engage (melee) on the monsters and made it A LOT faster (since you are under a 1hr time limit) and was worth it. Granted this was during 1.19 but I don't see why CNJ still couldn't do it now.

Wow, you are completely missing the point. Your looking at just the classes. You have to look at just the classes in relation to the jobs. As it stands now in many cases, jobs are going to make classes obsolete. A CNJ melee(ing?) is still a healer by FAR, and will never be selected to a DD. That's the problem, if the classes are not versatile enough then they'll just be left out to die. And there's no reason to think that a whm couldn't melee as good or better than a cnj, since the few abilities that a cnj can get from other classes that increase it's damage make little difference.

As it stands there has to be some changes. Maybe after the jobs come out they can retool the classes. Put less of an emphasis for identification for classes (since that's taken care of with jobs) and push them for versatility. Remove some defensive abilities from Glad and add something with damage. Decrease LNC's damage a bit and give them some party support abilities. Make CNJ nukes worth something. And make some of the cross class-able abilities more effective all together to merit usage and push for that versatility.