On the topic of Role Actions in 5.0 and beyond

[Kurando]

For example, the current meta has magical DPS like BLM, SMN and RDM as non-viable. Along with selfish DPS SAM.

If balance was done entirely around meta, BLM, SMN, RDM and SAM would get massive buffs and/or DRG/NIN/BRD would get nerfs.

Where do you get this information, SMN has been a viable pick since it got massive changes about a year ago (I forget the exact patch). It went from being clunky to use to kicking ass and taking names, BLM and RDM on the other hand is really down to party leader preference but they definitely are accepted more than SAM at the very least.

[Khalithar]

I think it's time for the role actions to be scrapped and the toolkits of the jobs to be re-evaluated and revamped.

[Grimoire-M]

I'd rather keep role actions, but have a split between mandatory actions that we should always have access to and situational actions that we like to have in specific instances. Most of the CC popping up all over the place really should be in the latter. I don't see why you can't have Esuna in there as long as there's a slot available for it that doesn't conflict with something important like Lucid Dreaming.

Some class actions really should be in the role action list, like Tempered Will and Manaward. Both would benefit their respective roles massively.

On the other hand Protect should be removed from the role action list with gear getting a slight tweak to account for it. Ideally in the form of boosting accessory defenses. Protect should become a WHM exclusive mitigation tool available early on in ARR.

For Diversion I'd also like to see it removed entirely and instead tanks get buff for using Shield Lob/Tomahawk/Unmend in tank stance that grants a massive aggro boost for a similar period (and would persist even if you swapped out of tank stance too), making them all the standard snap-aggro opening tool. PLD would get a higher multiplier specifically to make up for having weaker overall burst generation. That isn't to say I don't care about fixing aggro issues on physical dps, but it'll come in the form of giving Invigorate the same treatment as Lucid, halving your aggro on use in addition to TP. Refresh/Tactician are likely getting merged too and with the above in mind the aggro cut can be removed on the new skill that replaces them.

[Seraph522]

For Diversion I'd also like to see it removed entirely and instead tanks get buff for using Shield Lob/Tomahawk/Unmend in tank stance that grants a massive aggro boost for a similar period (and would persist even if you swapped out of tank stance too), making them all the standard snap-aggro opening tool. PLD would get a higher multiplier specifically to make up for having weaker overall burst generation. That isn't to say I don't care about fixing aggro issues on physical dps, but it'll come in the form of giving Invigorate the same treatment as Lucid, halving your aggro on use in addition to TP. Refresh/Tactician are likely getting merged too and with the above in mind the aggro cut can be removed on the new skill that replaces them.

I agree with most of your points except this one. I like having Diversion as an easy means to ensure enmity never climbs too high, especially because it's very easy to use and doesn't interfere with rotations for the most part (pop pre-pull, pop again when it comes off cooldown). More specifically, it's the only enmity mitigation tool RDM has that can be reserved solely for enmity management, as we have to rely on Lucid for MP regen. It would also mean Lucid is the only enmity management ability available to casters, as none of them have job-specific enmity abilities right now. I'm also hesitant to remove too many aggro management tools from DPS, because I like the idea of everyone contributing to each role, even if in small ways: tanks help healers by mitigating damage and DPS by doing damage, healers help tanks through protection abilities and healing and DPS by doing damage, and DPS help tanks by managing their aggro and healers by doing mechanics well. Removing Diversion would just encourage the "I don't need to manage my enmity, that's the tank's job!" crowd, and that's rather unfair to tanks.

[Grimoire-M]

-snip-

There are a few problems with these sentiments:
1) The only effective time to use Diversion is in the opener.
Mid-fight Lucid is way better at handling your aggro, massively so, because it cuts all the aggro you've generated so far in half, including on subsequent uses. Popping Lucid about a minute into the fight (typically 45s due to the next reason below) is about equal in value to Diversion in the opener. And only gains in value for each use afterward.

2) Diversion disrupts DPS openers if you actually wanted to use it for full value.
Diversion is 90% reduction for 12-16 GCDs assuming you were popping it right before starting the fight or in the first GCD you use, in practice it's way less than that on some classes because of what they need to do pre-pull. RDM specifically misses about 5-6 seconds of it. In most cases you can't use it in an ideal manner to achieve that in the opener that doesn't disrupt your oGCD rotation in some way, making it absolute garbage.

3) Diversion isn't going to magically fix bad players or systemic issues.
Any DPS complaining that the tank isn't doing their job on aggro past their levelling experience is usually not doing their job to begin with and is likely in a roulette which doesn't really matter. I've used both of those buttons in dungeons every pull and still can rip aggro despite that. Why? Because of gear disparity, and I've seen healers rip aggro off of tanks just as easily for similar reasons.

4) Giving tanks more aggro out of a tool they already want to use is more intuitive and less disruptive. Aggro is a tank-specific mechanic. Tanks should have to care about aggro.
Shield Lob and the like are already used for pulling mobs. This change actually ensures its available every single pull. Having to pop it again mid-fight isn't an issue for most people learning in tank stance while undergeared. Circle Shirks and tank swaps are already covered. Only PLD and DRK lose out, as both would need their tank stance up to take advantage of this and thus need to clip their GCD, which works fine for dungeons but sucks in aggro-reset situations for them specifically. All tank stances should be oGCD based anyways. From a Savage perspective the tools non-tanks have for the most part can enable tanks to pull in DPS stance (though it's most often the WAR in tank stance because of Unchained specifically getting around the problem) which is not okay. Tanks need to work for their aggro more in general, but giving them a tool to circumvent their problems in the opener specifically is far more efficient in terms of design space and in practical terms.

5) Any DPS that still has issues has been addressed by the Invigorate change I mentioned.
Melee DPS do not use Purification, Elusive Jump, or Merciful Eyes for aggro reduction unless they absolutely have to. NIN has Shadewalker to literally donate their aggro to a tank. They all lack a mid-fight way to deal with aggro that doesn't disrupt their rotation in some way (MNK/SAM lose damage, DRG is literally put out of melee range) apart from NIN, meaning they really should get the aggro cut Lucid has to deal with it. Hence the Invigorate change. It solves the problem in a much better way than Diversion or their personal options ever will, and using those options is a necessary evil in the interim. Don't even get me started on BRD/MCH. Their problem is the lack of Diversion in the opener, which is also addressed with the tank change I offered.

In your case with RDM, I can only assume you're not using Lucid on cooldown or early enough if you need to use Diversion more than once a fight. Find someone to Mana Shift early to get it rolling faster if you don't want to 'waste' MP, and never let it sit on cooldown after the fact. You'll be fine if you can get through the first melee combo. And if you can't for some reason, check your tank's gear.

There are classes that need better aggro tools, but they're not DPS, they're healers, and of them only one is an actual issue right now. WHM has no real aggro-reduction or cut tool aside from Lucid but has some of the highest aggro generating spells. Keep in mind AoE heals are like a 4-8x aggro boost since every enemy cares about who is getting healed but damage wise enemies only care about the damage dealt to themselves for aggro purposes. AST has free permanent aggro reduction in their Sects and Star doesn't generate any at all. SCH gets to split their aggro with their fairy. To me Thin Air & PoM would be good candidates for a Diversion-like effect that would benefit them in particular.

[Kalise]

I'd rather keep role actions, but have a split between mandatory actions that we should always have access to and situational actions that we like to have in specific instances. Most of the CC popping up all over the place really should be in the latter. I don't see why you can't have Esuna in there as long as there's a slot available for it that doesn't conflict with something important like Lucid Dreaming.

Well, Role Actions just seems... Redundant when there are "Mandatory Actions". You literally may as well just incorporate them into each classes natural ability lists. That way, people will always have access to them even if they haven't realized you can go and pick them in your spellbook. Which is very similar to nowadays after the change for Jobs being able to have all 10 Role Actions equipped up from 5.

You could then tweak their names and animations to fit each individual job if you really wanted (Though, I doubt that would ever be the case...)

The only notable difference would be the fact that Role Actions are weird and you keep them even when level sync'd...

To say nothing about button bloat, which is something of a concern when moving forwards with the game. Like, they've made a point about how they kind of really just want jobs to have 24 active skills to use (Which was especially notable with BLU design). Currently, all jobs have 24 active skills. Then a further up to 10 more Role Actions?

Many of the current Role Action skills that are seen as "Mandatory" can already be consolidated into already existing skills within jobs.

For example, does RDM really need Diversion and Lucid Dreaming? Or could their effects not be rolled into Displacement/Manafication? (Of course, adjusting Displacement so it's not an oGCD Potency skill that is wanted to be spammed on CD for DPS as well as being unusable when it's mobility is a disadvantage... To which something similar to a suggestion I made about BRD's Repelling Shot would work. Where it would do the movement when in melee range of an enemy but while at a distance it would provide enmity reduction)

There you've just got rid of 2 "Mandatory" role actions and thus 2 buttons.

Same thing with other skills, such as I've thought about Tank's ranged skills having the Provoke effect. So they would be oGCD skills (With no potency so they're not spammed for damage) that would put the user to top of the enmity list and give a boost of enmity alongside it. With a CD and significant resource cost to prevent potential abuse/nullification of enmity mechanics.

Another "Role Action" button is then dealt with.

This is why my suggestion in the original post was focused on Traits more so than Actions. Since, many of the Role Actions can just be incorporated into jobs kits, either as additional functionality on a skill or at worst just added as a new skill available to all jobs of a certain role (For example: Esuna. Though, even then, you could make the argument that Esuna could just be rolled into healers weak heals. Cure I, Physick and Benefic I. Given that they tend to not be used for actual healing once you attain the stronger heals of Cure II, Adloquium and Benefic II. I guess Swiftcast would be a better example for a Role Action that likely would necessitate an additional skill and can't be just folded into an existing one)

To say nothing about the issue with "Mandatory" picks in the first place (Which is the issue people have with my original suggestion, that meta will dictate "Mandatory" picks unless they're all fluff things) which makes their existence as a separate category of skills that have to be "Equipped" meaningless.

[Grimoire-M]

-snip-

The reason for the division between Mandatory Role Actions and Situational Role Actions is precisely because there are actions that should be available to each class within a Role that do not need to be altered or upgraded whatsoever. The Mandatory Actions could even be treated as if they were regular actions, being learned at specific levels, and always being accessible if you were at or above that level. The reason not to integrate them into every single kit is to cut down on a different kind of bloat. General Action Bloat, which matters more to developers than us, but also serves as a player shortcut.

I could name 4-5 mandatory actions for each role as it is from the role action list alone. We used to have only 5 slots, and there was a goto set up for every single role at the time. The main reason they don't need to be in everyone's kit is to conserve design space for other actions that actually are unique. Many of the current Role Actions however are skills like Esuna, Crowd Control, knockback immunities, Peloton, and so on. These should be relegated to the Situational Role Action list, and actually make sense there because there number of combat situations where they are NOT useful far outweighs the ones where they are, purely because SE doesn't want to use them enough.

However, there are Role Actions that simply should always be available to their roles because the exact opposite is true. They are almost always required for content. Swiftcast(Raising, general caster mobility), Provoke/Shirk(tank swaps), Invigorate/Lucid Dreaming (A baseline form of resource generation and aggro reduction), Second Wind/Bloodbath/Drain (Personal defensive skills), Reprisal/E4E/Protect/Addle/Feint/Apoc/Pali/Erase/ManaShift/Goad/Tactician/Refresh (Role-based raid utilities). Meta certainly informs what these are but the Role Action 'meta' back when there were 5 slots was based entirely on what role actions are useful in the majority of combat situations to begin with. My proposal attempts to address both of these cases.

Likewise, there are justifications for skills that shouldn't be on the role action list despite being on every class in some cases. I'll try to address each of your examples.

For healer spells, every healer has a similar set of basic healing tools, but there are clearly ranges and mechanical tweaks those heals can be toned up or down within to balance their relative throughput across each healer pair. Just in the single target up-front healing spells Physick heals for less than Cure I which heals for a similar amount to Benefic I (10 more or 10 less depending on Sect). And SCH doesn't even have access to Cure/Benefic II equivalent thanks to specific fairy cooldowns and mechanics filling a similar space. This is done to encourage SCH to DPS when paired with a co-healer but still give them a cheap option for healing when they absolutely have to.

I'd argue the same is true for tanks and their self mitigation. The difference is SE decided that Rampart/Anticipation/Convalescence/Awareness should be in every single tank's collective cooldown pool and should have the same effect for all of them, and thus I'd argue if they feel that's important then they should be put into a Mandatory Role Action list to serve as a common reference point. A similar logic would apply to all healing spells if they were the exact same. Since they're not, mechanically speaking, they deserve to be seperated.

Aesthetics don't matter in this particular discussion aside from noting that SE could try to code in different animations depending on the job you pick for these mandatory actions in order to make them more distinct. Raises and the Ranged Tank Pull GCDs would all benefit from being one singular button, but they're not currently. We don't need 5 Raise equivalents, yet we have them anyways. The only reason Raises aren't is because BLM isn't allowed to have one and the levels they're all learned at are spread across different expansions. I could see adding them into the Mandatory Role Action List for every single class if not for RDM.

That isn't to say I don't think certain role actions need to be pulled out of the role action list either. They can be present in individual kits, but they have to add something unique in addition to their baseline effect to justify seperating them. For example, Largesse for healers. Divine Seal was one of the things that gave WHM an edge over the other two healers previously, and I don't see any reason why it had to go away. Restoring that I think would be fine. AST could use a similar ability to it for sure, but adding another effect, such as temporarily swapping their Sect for the same duration, to justify having it as a class action. SCH has Dissipation already, giving it a clear drawback and cementing the idea that they're not supposed to rely on their raw GCD heals where possible, but they can do so in certain situations, with a cost. DOing all of that allows Largesse to be removed.

For your RDM example specifically, you're completely off base on that one. Don't tie in effects you want to use on abilities that actively make them harder to use with no compensation for it. We even have an equivalent already in the game to point to as a counter example, Dragoon and Elusive Jump. Dragoon would rather stay in melee range but would appreciate having the ability to cut their aggro in half without any positioning restrictions, on top of the issue of some arena fights do not leave the player enough room to use the ability at all. RDM and Displacement follow similar logic. Both classes would be better served by having aggro reduction on Lucid Dreaming and Invigorate respectively. This is different from the Dissipation example above because in these cases we're assuming there are no alternative ways to get around the problems these abilities are trying to address (Halving Aggro for Displacement/Elusive Jump, and healing for Dissipation).

I don't feel Role Traits are even necessary for this purpose. Either you have the ability you want or you don't. If it needs an upgrade it will get one when it needs to. And there aren't any particular traits that need to be added that fit that mould. You mentioned stat traits but that's literally what items and the old stat-point system were for and it was complete garbage. Everyone's going to figure out and pick the optimal stat/ability combination for any given situation regardless of what you do. If you accept that there's always going to be a 'meta' you can then utilize that to inform your design decisions. It's a lot easier think of design decisions that shape that 'meta' experience into what you actually want it to be and streamline the experience with little drawback. In the case of WoW's talent trees, new and old, there was almost always an optimal way to set your talents. People eventually made sims to figure it out, but it was always there. I could see the benefit to maybe changing up situational role actions in some manner but I guarantee everyone will opt for the shortest cooldown oGCD abilities without other balancing factors playing a role (such as adding damage, that messes everything up), so it's ultimately not worth it in the end. We only even tolerate it on items because it's the only reward option we really have.

[Kalise]

-Snip-

But again... What is the difference of having additional General Actions and having Role Actions that you automatically learn exactly like General Actions?

With them becoming General Actions, you have possibilities to actually rework or otherwise alter various General Actions to incorporate the mandatory Role Actions with a net reduction in button bloat while also making some of the "Useless" or more niche General Actions better.

Meanwhile it's very easy to simply cull the non-mandatory skills that are deemed useless altogether.

I mean, you talk about how Traits would simply lead to picks based on meta, but that's literally what Actions do, which you stated too. Just, with the addition of having additional button bloat on top.

Role Actions are actually pointless as a mechanic as it stands and is actually detrimental to players. Since either the skill is mandatory and so you just artificially increase the number of buttons necessary to play the job, or the skill is useless or niche in which case it either may as well not exist, or it may take up button real estate for the 0.01% of the time when it's actually useful. At no point is this either good game design nor an interesting system.

I'd rather see Role Actions just go away entirely than see them continue to exist in their current, pointless state. Thus, just giving all the "Mandatory" skills to jobs as General Actions, if not reworking existing skills to incorporating them. Like, there's no reason that all Casters couldn't simply just learn Swiftcast at the appropriate level in addition to their normal skill progression.

As such, I thought it might serve an interesting replacement for the Role Action system, which has potential to be actually interesting design, if it would still enable some form of character customization (Something sorely lacking in FFXIV what with gear options being lacking and Materia being completely dull due to how its effects are literally just +stats with the only actually part that makes a difference being when at BiS levels of gear being able to focus on stat breakpoints instead of just blindly melding towards optimal stat weights)

If an alternative to Role Actions cannot function in a good way, I'd be happy with just seeing the system in its entirety just be removed completely. But I'm not quite ready to rule out alternatives just yet, hence this thread asking people's ideas about alternatives including my own tentative idea surrounding optional Trait selections.

[Grimoire-M]

-snip-

What's the point of having Actions on each class list that do the exact same thing then? It's arbitrary from both perspectives at a first glance, but the difference between having the same exact button in the Role Action list as a Mandatory Action is it saves 2-6 buttons that all need individual icons and reference points in macros and the translator chat function. I've already explained to you that you need to justify splitting the actions into each class and gone through the nuances to justify what works and what doesn't. You have to justify adding them into each class as individual skills if you want to discard the system. And if they're similar enough people will just use what they find most convenient to describe them anyways.

The Situational Actions are on SE to make use of. If they don't want to use stuns/silences and so on because of what I assume was bias from Gordias Savage (there was a lot in that tier that got shafted by the fact they screwed up the numbers badly) that's on their raid design team for not figuring out a way to communicate that that CC is needed. And given they added a Raid Action button to the list I'm guessing they're gonna abandon it in favor of more Raid Action buttons anyways. Personally I'd rather they just give everyone a basic Silence/Stun/Root/Knockback and so on with appropriate names for each role and moved on, but I don't expect them to.

As for customization, this game already lets you level every class. That's supposed to fill that niche. I'd rather they actually fine tune classes and hone in on the problems have had with them and go and alter their gearing system to enable people to farm BiS gear for every single class on patch if they wanted so they can try a different class in Savage/Ultimate without having to make and gear up nearly a dozen alts. At the end of the day a talent tree where you choose between 'buff/burst cd/AoE' or 'good stat/bad stat/okay stat' doesn't actually mean anything unless SE actually wanted to put in the effort to make those things work, and based on interviews with Yoshi-P, they don't. The best we can expect is that they will learn from Role Actions and not abandon it entirely, as removing it is a step backward.

[Kalise]

What's the point of having Actions on each class list that do the exact same thing then? It's arbitrary from both perspectives at a first glance, but the difference between having the same exact button in the Role Action list as a Mandatory Action is it saves 2-6 buttons that all need individual icons and reference points in macros and the translator chat function.

But it doesn't?

You literally can have literally Swiftcast literally learned by all magic jobs literally as is, at the relevant level.

It just now appears in the "General Actions" and is auto-learned upon reaching said level.

No need to rename, reicon, reanything.

Just put the sodding skill in with the jobs skills.

This isn't rocket surgery, we don't need to make Swiftcast be called SUPERMEGAPIXIEMAGICFASTCAST with a twinkling fairy icon for Scholar, just give them Swiftcast literally as it currently exists.

Unless you feel the need to alter said ability for said job in some way.

Or if you feel you can alter an existing ability to fit the effect on. Like, how much does a Warrior actually need Convalescence as a separate skill to say, Thrill of Battle could you not just combine the two effects into ToB?

As for customization, this game already lets you level every class. That's supposed to fill that niche.

But that's not class customization.

That doesn't let me make changes to make my SAM feel different to another persons SAM based on personal preferences.

Like, ideally there'd be a situation like BLM, where basically every stat is more or less equally weighted so you can go full SpS, full Crit, full DH or some variant in between and all are equally viable and the choice is based on personal preferences and ping.

However, that is basically a unicorn in balancing, especially given how many systems interact (I.e. Crits generate more LB gauge than other hits for example. Also, crit as a stat not only increases crit chance but also the multiplier to damage that crits give.) that funnel players into these strict stat weights that you basically blindly follow until you reach a point where you're able to start messing with fine tuning breakpoints.

Just saying "Play another class lel" doesn't quite do that. Especially when you also consider how classes play into the meta too. Like, people don't want to run with SAM's or MNK's in an idealized team they want DRG's and NIN's so if I was wanted to play NIN but wanted to get some slightly shifted gameplay just saying "Lel go play another job" doesn't work because then I'm not only having a completely different gameplay but also then subject to how valued that new job I decide to play is within the meta.

Literally this is like when people complained about having to level other classes to get cross class skills and just saying "Lel, just play another class instead"