On the topic of Role Actions in 5.0 and beyond

[Grimoire-M]

-snip-

The reason for the division between Mandatory Role Actions and Situational Role Actions is precisely because there are actions that should be available to each class within a Role that do not need to be altered or upgraded whatsoever. The Mandatory Actions could even be treated as if they were regular actions, being learned at specific levels, and always being accessible if you were at or above that level. The reason not to integrate them into every single kit is to cut down on a different kind of bloat. General Action Bloat, which matters more to developers than us, but also serves as a player shortcut.

I could name 4-5 mandatory actions for each role as it is from the role action list alone. We used to have only 5 slots, and there was a goto set up for every single role at the time. The main reason they don't need to be in everyone's kit is to conserve design space for other actions that actually are unique. Many of the current Role Actions however are skills like Esuna, Crowd Control, knockback immunities, Peloton, and so on. These should be relegated to the Situational Role Action list, and actually make sense there because there number of combat situations where they are NOT useful far outweighs the ones where they are, purely because SE doesn't want to use them enough.

However, there are Role Actions that simply should always be available to their roles because the exact opposite is true. They are almost always required for content. Swiftcast(Raising, general caster mobility), Provoke/Shirk(tank swaps), Invigorate/Lucid Dreaming (A baseline form of resource generation and aggro reduction), Second Wind/Bloodbath/Drain (Personal defensive skills), Reprisal/E4E/Protect/Addle/Feint/Apoc/Pali/Erase/ManaShift/Goad/Tactician/Refresh (Role-based raid utilities). Meta certainly informs what these are but the Role Action 'meta' back when there were 5 slots was based entirely on what role actions are useful in the majority of combat situations to begin with. My proposal attempts to address both of these cases.

Likewise, there are justifications for skills that shouldn't be on the role action list despite being on every class in some cases. I'll try to address each of your examples.

For healer spells, every healer has a similar set of basic healing tools, but there are clearly ranges and mechanical tweaks those heals can be toned up or down within to balance their relative throughput across each healer pair. Just in the single target up-front healing spells Physick heals for less than Cure I which heals for a similar amount to Benefic I (10 more or 10 less depending on Sect). And SCH doesn't even have access to Cure/Benefic II equivalent thanks to specific fairy cooldowns and mechanics filling a similar space. This is done to encourage SCH to DPS when paired with a co-healer but still give them a cheap option for healing when they absolutely have to.

I'd argue the same is true for tanks and their self mitigation. The difference is SE decided that Rampart/Anticipation/Convalescence/Awareness should be in every single tank's collective cooldown pool and should have the same effect for all of them, and thus I'd argue if they feel that's important then they should be put into a Mandatory Role Action list to serve as a common reference point. A similar logic would apply to all healing spells if they were the exact same. Since they're not, mechanically speaking, they deserve to be seperated.

Aesthetics don't matter in this particular discussion aside from noting that SE could try to code in different animations depending on the job you pick for these mandatory actions in order to make them more distinct. Raises and the Ranged Tank Pull GCDs would all benefit from being one singular button, but they're not currently. We don't need 5 Raise equivalents, yet we have them anyways. The only reason Raises aren't is because BLM isn't allowed to have one and the levels they're all learned at are spread across different expansions. I could see adding them into the Mandatory Role Action List for every single class if not for RDM.

That isn't to say I don't think certain role actions need to be pulled out of the role action list either. They can be present in individual kits, but they have to add something unique in addition to their baseline effect to justify seperating them. For example, Largesse for healers. Divine Seal was one of the things that gave WHM an edge over the other two healers previously, and I don't see any reason why it had to go away. Restoring that I think would be fine. AST could use a similar ability to it for sure, but adding another effect, such as temporarily swapping their Sect for the same duration, to justify having it as a class action. SCH has Dissipation already, giving it a clear drawback and cementing the idea that they're not supposed to rely on their raw GCD heals where possible, but they can do so in certain situations, with a cost. DOing all of that allows Largesse to be removed.

For your RDM example specifically, you're completely off base on that one. Don't tie in effects you want to use on abilities that actively make them harder to use with no compensation for it. We even have an equivalent already in the game to point to as a counter example, Dragoon and Elusive Jump. Dragoon would rather stay in melee range but would appreciate having the ability to cut their aggro in half without any positioning restrictions, on top of the issue of some arena fights do not leave the player enough room to use the ability at all. RDM and Displacement follow similar logic. Both classes would be better served by having aggro reduction on Lucid Dreaming and Invigorate respectively. This is different from the Dissipation example above because in these cases we're assuming there are no alternative ways to get around the problems these abilities are trying to address (Halving Aggro for Displacement/Elusive Jump, and healing for Dissipation).

I don't feel Role Traits are even necessary for this purpose. Either you have the ability you want or you don't. If it needs an upgrade it will get one when it needs to. And there aren't any particular traits that need to be added that fit that mould. You mentioned stat traits but that's literally what items and the old stat-point system were for and it was complete garbage. Everyone's going to figure out and pick the optimal stat/ability combination for any given situation regardless of what you do. If you accept that there's always going to be a 'meta' you can then utilize that to inform your design decisions. It's a lot easier think of design decisions that shape that 'meta' experience into what you actually want it to be and streamline the experience with little drawback. In the case of WoW's talent trees, new and old, there was almost always an optimal way to set your talents. People eventually made sims to figure it out, but it was always there. I could see the benefit to maybe changing up situational role actions in some manner but I guarantee everyone will opt for the shortest cooldown oGCD abilities without other balancing factors playing a role (such as adding damage, that messes everything up), so it's ultimately not worth it in the end. We only even tolerate it on items because it's the only reward option we really have.

[Kalise]

-Snip-

But again... What is the difference of having additional General Actions and having Role Actions that you automatically learn exactly like General Actions?

With them becoming General Actions, you have possibilities to actually rework or otherwise alter various General Actions to incorporate the mandatory Role Actions with a net reduction in button bloat while also making some of the "Useless" or more niche General Actions better.

Meanwhile it's very easy to simply cull the non-mandatory skills that are deemed useless altogether.

I mean, you talk about how Traits would simply lead to picks based on meta, but that's literally what Actions do, which you stated too. Just, with the addition of having additional button bloat on top.

Role Actions are actually pointless as a mechanic as it stands and is actually detrimental to players. Since either the skill is mandatory and so you just artificially increase the number of buttons necessary to play the job, or the skill is useless or niche in which case it either may as well not exist, or it may take up button real estate for the 0.01% of the time when it's actually useful. At no point is this either good game design nor an interesting system.

I'd rather see Role Actions just go away entirely than see them continue to exist in their current, pointless state. Thus, just giving all the "Mandatory" skills to jobs as General Actions, if not reworking existing skills to incorporating them. Like, there's no reason that all Casters couldn't simply just learn Swiftcast at the appropriate level in addition to their normal skill progression.

As such, I thought it might serve an interesting replacement for the Role Action system, which has potential to be actually interesting design, if it would still enable some form of character customization (Something sorely lacking in FFXIV what with gear options being lacking and Materia being completely dull due to how its effects are literally just +stats with the only actually part that makes a difference being when at BiS levels of gear being able to focus on stat breakpoints instead of just blindly melding towards optimal stat weights)

If an alternative to Role Actions cannot function in a good way, I'd be happy with just seeing the system in its entirety just be removed completely. But I'm not quite ready to rule out alternatives just yet, hence this thread asking people's ideas about alternatives including my own tentative idea surrounding optional Trait selections.

[Grimoire-M]

-snip-

What's the point of having Actions on each class list that do the exact same thing then? It's arbitrary from both perspectives at a first glance, but the difference between having the same exact button in the Role Action list as a Mandatory Action is it saves 2-6 buttons that all need individual icons and reference points in macros and the translator chat function. I've already explained to you that you need to justify splitting the actions into each class and gone through the nuances to justify what works and what doesn't. You have to justify adding them into each class as individual skills if you want to discard the system. And if they're similar enough people will just use what they find most convenient to describe them anyways.

The Situational Actions are on SE to make use of. If they don't want to use stuns/silences and so on because of what I assume was bias from Gordias Savage (there was a lot in that tier that got shafted by the fact they screwed up the numbers badly) that's on their raid design team for not figuring out a way to communicate that that CC is needed. And given they added a Raid Action button to the list I'm guessing they're gonna abandon it in favor of more Raid Action buttons anyways. Personally I'd rather they just give everyone a basic Silence/Stun/Root/Knockback and so on with appropriate names for each role and moved on, but I don't expect them to.

As for customization, this game already lets you level every class. That's supposed to fill that niche. I'd rather they actually fine tune classes and hone in on the problems have had with them and go and alter their gearing system to enable people to farm BiS gear for every single class on patch if they wanted so they can try a different class in Savage/Ultimate without having to make and gear up nearly a dozen alts. At the end of the day a talent tree where you choose between 'buff/burst cd/AoE' or 'good stat/bad stat/okay stat' doesn't actually mean anything unless SE actually wanted to put in the effort to make those things work, and based on interviews with Yoshi-P, they don't. The best we can expect is that they will learn from Role Actions and not abandon it entirely, as removing it is a step backward.

[Kalise]

What's the point of having Actions on each class list that do the exact same thing then? It's arbitrary from both perspectives at a first glance, but the difference between having the same exact button in the Role Action list as a Mandatory Action is it saves 2-6 buttons that all need individual icons and reference points in macros and the translator chat function.

But it doesn't?

You literally can have literally Swiftcast literally learned by all magic jobs literally as is, at the relevant level.

It just now appears in the "General Actions" and is auto-learned upon reaching said level.

No need to rename, reicon, reanything.

Just put the sodding skill in with the jobs skills.

This isn't rocket surgery, we don't need to make Swiftcast be called SUPERMEGAPIXIEMAGICFASTCAST with a twinkling fairy icon for Scholar, just give them Swiftcast literally as it currently exists.

Unless you feel the need to alter said ability for said job in some way.

Or if you feel you can alter an existing ability to fit the effect on. Like, how much does a Warrior actually need Convalescence as a separate skill to say, Thrill of Battle could you not just combine the two effects into ToB?

As for customization, this game already lets you level every class. That's supposed to fill that niche.

But that's not class customization.

That doesn't let me make changes to make my SAM feel different to another persons SAM based on personal preferences.

Like, ideally there'd be a situation like BLM, where basically every stat is more or less equally weighted so you can go full SpS, full Crit, full DH or some variant in between and all are equally viable and the choice is based on personal preferences and ping.

However, that is basically a unicorn in balancing, especially given how many systems interact (I.e. Crits generate more LB gauge than other hits for example. Also, crit as a stat not only increases crit chance but also the multiplier to damage that crits give.) that funnel players into these strict stat weights that you basically blindly follow until you reach a point where you're able to start messing with fine tuning breakpoints.

Just saying "Play another class lel" doesn't quite do that. Especially when you also consider how classes play into the meta too. Like, people don't want to run with SAM's or MNK's in an idealized team they want DRG's and NIN's so if I was wanted to play NIN but wanted to get some slightly shifted gameplay just saying "Lel go play another job" doesn't work because then I'm not only having a completely different gameplay but also then subject to how valued that new job I decide to play is within the meta.

Literally this is like when people complained about having to level other classes to get cross class skills and just saying "Lel, just play another class instead"

[Shurrikhan]

What's the point of having Actions on each class list that do the exact same thing then? It's arbitrary from both perspectives at a first glance, but the difference between having the same exact button in the Role Action list as a Mandatory Action is it saves 2-6 buttons that all need individual icons and reference points in macros and the translator chat function. I've already explained to you that you need to justify splitting the actions into each class and gone through the nuances to justify what works and what doesn't. You have to justify adding them into each class as individual skills if you want to discard the system. And if they're similar enough people will just use what they find most convenient to describe them anyways.

What difference does it make to button bloat if a cleanse is called Esuna on one list, Leeches on another, and Exalted Detriment on a third? For all other issues, the solutions are still simple:
1. Make this game's macro system actually decent, including the ability to use
2. Function-calls, such as "Cleanse" (for all abilities which Cleanse).

The latter issue is already present. I don't need to be Esuna'd, per se. I need someone to get the DoT off me. I do not care if that happens via The Warden's Paeon, Erase, Esuna, or Leeches or ED. I need it {Cleanse}d.

And as for the individual icons, I would honestly rather time spent on my Shadowskin name, icon, and animation than have to use the completely aesthetically incongruous Rampart on a Dark Knight. "Saving" that kind of time is not a ingenious decision, no matter how badly design elsewhere resorts to copy-pasta in the actual effects of those skills; it's just shorting a class's aesthetic. The next step for that is to literally just make fewer job skills in general as long as one such skill exists anywhere in the role. I find it really hard to believe that anyone would be okay with all getting the same new skill in an expansion among healers, tanks, or dps, which is why it still confuses me that people somehow thought it was worth the development time necessary to undo the development time of separate icons, names, and animations for shared effects.

[Grimoire-M]

What difference does it make to button bloat if a cleanse is called Esuna on one list, Leeches on another, and Exalted Detriment on a third?

It saves making three separate macro slots for the exact same button. See Raise Macros. Individual button count per class hotbars isn't affected, but it's still bloat. And Warden's Paean can save the need for all three anyways. I literally did that so our SCH could take Protect in that slot and still handle the ghost in O5S prog. And it at least warrants a different treatment because it's functionally different from the other 'Cleanse' effects, even if the mechanical output is the same.

Call me jaded but given the Dev team's track record I expect nothing to happen regarding macros at all in the next 5 years. We'll be lucky if we see more shifts towards active mitigation for tanks and some proper healer rebalancing in Shadowbringers. The button consolidation is all but mandatory now sure, but I could see them adding more buttons still because there is room for it still. I wouldn't be opposed to what Kalise proposed, specifically the bit where Swiftcast is added to every caster's class list instead. That would be fine, so long as it was treated at least similarly to Disciple of Hand actions and kept the same name and similar base animations/particles on each class. That's where the mandatory stuff would go, and the Role Actions Tab would be renamed to Situational Actions. However, I do not see them splitting actions up again by name without some major kit reworks to justify it. There simply isn't a good reason for them to keep similar baseline actions split if they can afford to keep them together. The only reason I think the Mandatory/Situational Role Action split would happen is because they're more likely to keep everything on that tab. We still have Eye For An Eye and Peloton despite both being long overdue for removal (not that E4E isn't good, but RNG is still RNG). Break exists purely because of one savage fight it saw use in.

I agree, they're going to have to trim something, my hope is they give everyone access to all CC and party/ally mitigation utilities and go back to 3-5 slots for Role Actions so every comp can have access to that situational stuff in general. But in terms of the abilities that each role actually needs? That I expect to be kept as close to the way it is now as possible.

[Shurrikhan]

Call me jaded but given the Dev team's track record I expect nothing to happen regarding macros at all in the next 5 years.

I don't think the game can afford not to see improvements to its macros unless it provides similar quality of life improvements to all that a good macro system could. The haphazardness of the game's underlying designs will only get more apparent with time while the benefits for such improvements only get larger.

[deadman1204]

It saves making three separate macro slots for the exact same button. See Raise Macros. Individual button count per class hotbars isn't affected, but it's still bloat. And Warden's Paean can save the need for all three anyways. I literally did that so our SCH could take Protect in that slot and still handle the ghost in O5S prog. And it at least warrants a different treatment because it's functionally different from the other 'Cleanse' effects, even if the mechanical output is the same.

Honestly, Macro usability should be VERY VERY low in button design. The game doesn't require macros, so they should always be a secondary thought. I would guess you are in a small minority that wants all class skills/names/buttons to be the same for macroing.

Note - I'm not saying your wrong, but your proposed changes would take alot of the flavor from jobs which affects everyone to make macroing easier for a few.