Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

[Enla]

The mistakes of 8 already punish the other 16, as the 16 have to pull the weight that the 8 are lacking. It’s not fun dealing with TGC sans an entire alliance—especially during key mechanics such as Duskblade, the orbs, and the tethers—because one alliance’s healers cannot comprehend “You need to heal to full HP to cleanse the Doom from Cleansing Strike”, or one alliance’s tank insists on taking the tether and getting ripped to shreds because of it (and subsequently causing the rest of their alliance to get auto’d by TGC).

The issue with no enrages in this content as it does not punish for repeated mistakes, such as repeated deaths and/or mechanical failures; nor does it promote actually outputting decent damage (I’m a terrible tank—I’m still learning how to actually optimize tanks—but when I am in the Top 10 of the entire alliance and beating DPS like BLMs, SAMs, and MNKs, there is a problem). All it does is instill within players that, “We can just continuously Raise and Raise and throw bodies at the boss, and eventually, we’ll win—we don’t have to actually try to output decent damage or anything”. I have to disagree with such a mindset.

Repeated mistakes need ways to punish for them, because eventually, at least some players will learn from them. Not all—this is not a perfect world by any stretch, and I’m not naive enough to believe all players will learn from mistakes. But at least some will, if they realize that they can’t just automatically win.

Another fight that badly needed an enrage at launch was Math Blaster from Ridorana. I vividly remember a twenty minute ordeal one time I happened to queue for it where 5 people basically kept the entire alliance going. They stayed alive, whittling down the boss and trying to rez whenever they had a spare moment to do so, and were generally the heros of that instance. Yet predictably because the fight was still ongoing in spite of everything, the people who died due to a lack of understand with the mechanics would inevitably die seconds after being rezz'd out of sheer and understandable panic. Healer LB3? Useless when everyone dies seconds later because they're running around like headless chickens. Yes the boss eventually went down, but it would have been infinitely faster and kinder to the newbies had an enrage forced the instance to reset so those who were struggling could have some time to digest what they saw.

[SenorPatty]

Another fight that badly needed an enrage at launch was Math Blaster from Ridorana. I vividly remember a twenty minute ordeal one time I happened to queue for it where 5 people basically kept the entire alliance going. They stayed alive, whittling down the boss and trying to rez whenever they had a spare moment to do so, and were generally the heros of that instance. Yet predictably because the fight was still ongoing in spite of everything, the people who died due to a lack of understand with the mechanics would inevitably die seconds after being rezz'd out of sheer and understandable panic. Healer LB3? Useless when everyone dies seconds later because they're running around like headless chickens. Yes the boss eventually went down, but it would have been infinitely faster and kinder to the newbies had an enrage forced the instance to reset so those who were struggling could have some time to digest what they saw.

I literally lived that I think 3 weeks ago. I joked that this was the best 10man raid (8 of us carrying the entire alliance and some stragglers here and there in the other two) and my party members agreed. It was so bad, all of us in B genuinely questioned if we were gonna clear Yiazmat because of the dps check. Surprising, we did but holy crap, I never want to do that again. Ever.

[AxHell]

Snip

I feel you. That was also me yesterday when I queued as AST in Orbonne. My Co-healer was a WHM and the guy woudln't just stop standing in EVERYTHING that was bad and not do any mechanics despite NOT BEING a newbie!

It was especially rage inducing during Thundergod where their only method of healing, especially during the Doom mechanic, was to throw nothing but Cure 1! I didn't pay attention during the other bosses but Cure 1 was the only thing he used.

Tried to vote kick him and for some reason it didn't go through.

[Pepsi_Plunge]

Tried to vote kick him

For what reason? "Being a bad player" is not an option for a votekick. Afaik only offline/afk, discriminating other players or illegal activities are now legitimate reasons.

[Baalfrog]

The problem of adding the enrage to a 24 man tho is that it's kind of an unfair punishment to the alliances that are actually doing well

Punishing 16 people for the mistake of 8 will make people furious,buuut I say that as there are 24 man bosses with mechs that requires most of if not all of each alliance members to be alive or at least have the brains on Thunder God Cid to not drop the puddles in the same spot or remember to have 3 stand in Duskblades

It's a two way street, is it fair for the 8 players to carry the 16 who are seriously not doing their jobs? The 24 men would be a great place to have soft enrages, things just hit slightly harder over time as time goes on, eventually overwhelming the alliances. Nothing too tight, but just there to reward people from doing absolutely nothing...

For what reason? "Being a bad player" is not an option for a votekick. Afaik only offline/afk, discriminating other players or illegal activities are now legitimate reasons.

I don't think the stance on vote kicking for "differing playstyles" (read. I'm just cure 1 bombing and failing everything and then confronted but still keep doing it and not doing anything about it) is a valid reason to kick, even if the vote kick prompt doesn't have it there. I mean, if you want to get all technical, this could fall under harassment under the new TOS and its vague rulings :P. Because, in this case the Cure 1 WHM is obstructing the play of others by doing... uuhhh basically nothing.

[Vidu]

For what reason? "Being a bad player" is not an option for a votekick. Afaik only offline/afk, discriminating other players or illegal activities are now legitimate reasons.

I'm not sure if the new ToS had any effect on this, but kicking for "difference in playstyle" at least was a valid reason to remove someone from the party.

Personally, I would always advice to approach such a person in a polite and friendly way ("Hey, would you mind casting Medica II to help get everyone up?") and then wait for the outcome, which in my experience is one of three things:
1) They start playing properly or asking for advice
2) They start insulting you (-> now you can definitly kick for harrassment)
3) They dont respond - in which case I'll ask a few more times to please say something or show any reaction, announcing that if they dont, I'll have to assume they are a bot and remove them for illegal activities.

While "playing bad" isnt on the list of things you can kick for and probably something you cant file a report over, obstructing the gameplay of others is definitly prohibited. And onlay casting Cure I in level 70 content sounds pretty close to trolling and obstructing the gameplay of at least 7, more likely 23, other people.

[Pepsi_Plunge]

I'm not sure if the new ToS had any effect on this, but kicking for "difference in playstyle" at least was a valid reason to remove someone from the party.

Not anymore. They changed that. Found out a few days ago when a player keeps ignoring a mechanic and causing us to wipe 3 times in a row, even after we told him what to do after each time. There was just no eligible reason to choose from, meaning SE could even punish the votekick-starter for "abusing and harrassing" other players via the votekick-system.

[Vidu]

Not anymore. They changed that. Found out a few days ago when a player keeps ignoring a mechanic and causing us to wipe 3 times in a row, even after we told him what to do after each time. There was just no eligible reason to choose from, meaning SE could even punish the votekick-starter for "abusing the harrassing" other players via the votekick-system.

We never had the written option "difference in playstyle" - you just picked anyone (personally I mostly went for "afk" or "harrassment" in the few instances that I made use of it, depending on which on was closer). They never officially gave us that option, but several GMs confirmed over the last years that you can kick for that. Obviously they didnt want to advertise that in the menu though.

If someone is holding the whole party/alliance back with their absolute subpar-playstyle that gets pretty close to griefing/trolling aka harrassing to me, so I would kick for that. If you are playing so badly in endgame content that you are the reason your party cant clear, you should be removed because you're having a negative impact on the enjoyment of 3/7/23 other people.

[Mansion]

Not anymore. They changed that. Found out a few days ago when a player keeps ignoring a mechanic and causing us to wipe 3 times in a row, even after we told him what to do after each time. There was just no eligible reason to choose from, meaning SE could even punish the votekick-starter for "abusing and harrassing" other players via the votekick-system.

You can vote kick for "Behaviour" if someone is repeatedly (or willingly...) failing mechanics, not active-learning and not listening to any form of advice the team is giving them. That's not kicking for "difference of playstyle" that's reporting for "obstruction of gameplay" in my opinion.
And if that player reports anyone following that votekick, I'm pretty sure the GM would not give them reason.

[MetalSnakeXI1]

The mistakes of 8 already punish the other 16, as the 16 have to pull the weight that the 8 are lacking. It’s not fun dealing with TGC sans an entire alliance—especially during key mechanics such as Duskblade, the orbs, and the tethers—because one alliance’s healers cannot comprehend “You need to heal to full HP to cleanse the Doom from Cleansing Strike”, or one alliance’s tank insists on taking the tether and getting ripped to shreds because of it (and subsequently causing the rest of their alliance to get auto’d by TGC).

The issue with no enrages in this content is it does not punish for repeated mistakes, such as repeated deaths and/or mechanical failures; nor does it promote actually outputting decent damage (I’m a terrible tank—I’m still learning how to actually optimize tanks—but when I am in the Top 10 of the entire alliance and beating DPS like BLMs, SAMs, and MNKs, there is a problem). All it does is instill within players that, “We can just continuously Raise and Raise and throw bodies at the boss, and eventually, we’ll win—we don’t have to actually try to output decent damage or anything”. I have to disagree with such a mindset.

Repeated mistakes need ways to punish for them, because eventually, at least some players will learn from them. Not all—this is not a perfect world by any stretch, and I’m not naive enough to believe all players will learn from mistakes. But at least some will, if they realize that they can’t just automatically win.


EDIT: Did my last Orbonne of the day, and it was a doozy. I somehow continuously ended up the MT against a DRK that never dropped Grit (didn’t die until near the end of Ultima), and I still haven’t figured out why. I did get praise from a healer for using Hallowed Ground against TGC’s Crush Weapon+Crush Helm (I love doing that when I get both)... but then I was crying later when I got it again and had to Sprint for the hills.

The WHM in our alliance was too busy complaining about the boss designs to apparently heal, though. Our entire Alliance died on every boss... except for me because tank privilege but I can’t do much on PLD other can Clemency myself and cry for my Requiescat window.

I think it’s time to go play on the alt some.

Fair enough,but for this case I'd say a soft enrage would be better to do than a hard enrage as the constant push would keep everyone on their toes and encourages them to output more damage and heals harder while also giving it the room to be salvagable with enough push compared to a hard-enrage.

Maybe with enough feedback they might implement this in the upcominb YoRHa: Dark Apocalypse alliance raids in 5.0 but I'm not sure