Yotsuyu, Fordola, syndrom of "a good writting"? (spoil)

[Kazhim]

I'm not a fan of how they handle and write most of their villains. It's true, Yotsuyu and Fordola have a few clichés that I can't help but feel like were shoved in our faces to try and morally conflict us to make them seem "deeper." But still, I do think these two characters are more well-written than a lot of their other "enemies of the week." Remember their portrayal of the Warriors of Darkness? "Oh look, it's the Warrior of Light." *sinister face* "Oh there was a twin, no wonder my poison arrow seemed like it had no effect" *smug sneering* "Oooh, you beat us! Pity our situation." *sadfaces* - Yeah, that was how "deep" those villains who had been built-up for some time came across.

Personally, I think Fordola's situation seems more worth seeing-through. There are similarities between Yotsuyu and Fordola (probably intended), but Yotsuyu was pretty much sociopathic and the only thing really keeping her from being a total hatesink was her convenient amnesia, which as somebody already pointed out, her and Gosetsu's role in the story was more impactful if they had ended in Doma Castle's collapse. But unfortunately, as the writers prove time and time again, they have an incredibly tough time leaving any significant story characters truly dead, and we frequently find out mere patches later that "but wait- not really!" The writers seem to love using the Not Quite Dead trope to the point that it's not even a plot twist anymore and any time somebody "dies" (and hasn't already come back before) I'll expect them to make an appearance back into the story eventually and will be pleasantly surprised if they actually don't.

Yes of course

after i dont eat 150 serial from HBO or netflix, so maybe those character speak to me because i dont meet this so often, still i find them so better than minfilia and lyse, so for me that is enough. i hear your critic, but i say that story of Yotsuyu bring very mature topic about traditionnal society in asia, and i think it has the deserved to be here, i m even astonish that japanese, which are a very very patriarchal society, want to approach those topic in a game. After i like yotsuyu befor her back, because she goes to the end, and never give up, she was so better wrote than gaius for example. her back is more played on symbolism i think, we see her as child, childhood she never get, and to finish as a goddess, maybe to highlight the importance to have faith when all society is against you.

[Nestama]

She should, at the very least, be imprisoned for the rest of her life. Instead, she gets to go on adventures with Arenvald while occasionally having reminders of her past misdeads.

Fordola is a monster, and the game keeps asking us to, if not forgive her, at least condone her.

Wut? When did this happen? In 4.1, she assisted us in fighting Lakshmi and then once that was over, went straight back to prison (I'm also pretty sure she even requested that she go back to prison).

Yup. "It's done. Take me back to my cell."

[Kazhim]

The Warriors of Darkness had the full weight of an entire world on their shoulders. I can't really condemn them for being smug and desperate - especially when the protagonists frequently cheer, nod enthusiastically and bump fists when preparing to slaughter countless enemy combatants. Many of whom are conscripts/individuals forced into dire situations due to just how horrible and messed up a setting Hydaelyn actually is.

never trust "god"

Hydeylyn make me more and more think to the "elder" in soul reaver

you know you start the game, the elder is your mentor, he allow you to get revenge, and you are his angel of death, just the same way Hydelyn start with your character, so you progress thinking that the god is with you, you are the warrior of light or whatever, and more you progress more you figur out that this "god" play his on sheet and you are just pawn to him. (or her)

Lessons to keep, god are not good or bad, they just do work on another dimension, which mean for simple human, maybe many suffering and death.

The elder, was the plag of nosgoth, the wheel of life was created by his own hands to allow him continue to be fed. And hydelyn make me think close of him on her behaviour, after all we know nothing of her and i dont think she care much about human live (or life in general) remember that was her fault if the world shatterred in 13 part.

on that side i dont cosidere ascien as bad, but among those two , human are few thing i fear.

[Nestama]

The world being "shattered" (really it's just 13 alternate worlds. Similar to the Source, but different... though I guess technically 12 worlds since the Ascians messed up and turned the 13th into a void. Warriors of Darkness messed up on the 1st, but Hydaelyn sent Minfillia there to siphon the Light) was because Zodiark was getting greedy, which had Hydaelyn banish him to the moon (3.2 cutscenes in the Antitower). We don't even know if there was life on the world before she sealed him away and the first lore book kinda implies that.

[Mansion]

Wut? When did this happen? In 4.1, she assisted us in fighting Lakshmi and then once that was over, went straight back to prison (I'm also pretty sure she even requested that she go back to prison).

It's in the Tales of the Storm thing, a serie of short stories around Stormblood, and there's one about Fordola being in an army regiment, being heroic and all. Quite lame in my opinion.

I liked Fordola, precisely because she is a monster. I think I talked about that some time ago and said something I wanted to sound witty like "If you actually feel something for a character, good or bad, then it's a good character". Fordola has a sad background, she grows evil and her only contact to reality is heroic (what she thinks so at least) combat. That's why she was a good soldier for Gaius, then Zenos, and now wherever she has been placed. Otherwise, she is constantly enduring her harsh past and her evil decisions. She's tragic in a way, and she trapped herself in this cycle. I did not feel the game was forcing us to forgive her or anything, she's most likely silenced past 4.1 when they awkwardly showed the "good" within her. I'm ok with that.

While now that we are facing different baddies... Solus is the stereotype of mad funny villain (Joker from Batman etc.), which I find dull. But Varis gained a bit of depth in that context.

[Kazhim]

Oh yeah, Yotsuyu is similar in that we see the Warriors of Darkness smugly act evil as they attempt to commit mass genocide, then at the end the story wants us to feel sorry for them and the Warriors of Darkness start making sad faces. It's was so hamfisted. I get the very strong impression these character aren't fully written out so the attempt to add dimensions to these villains in a later patches come off as retcons. What did the Warriors of Darkness stand to gain by acting smug and condescending? The fact that they never seem conflicted or regretful in their attempt at mass genocide made them completely unsympathetic in my eyes.

Yotsuyu never choose redemption, she was inflicted with brain damage caused by her own malicious actions. So what's the surprise when Yotsuyu choose to be herself? What was at stake? Yotsuyu was never sympathetic in my eyes. She attempted to purge a fishing village, one whom hadn't done anything to her. She never regretted these actions, especially when she had amnesia. Yotsuyu never goes through a character arc, she goes from being herself, to being brain damaged, then back to being herself. There's a reason amnesia is considered hack writing.

I m not agree

we can consider brain damage due to her past, tell me who grow up with a saint mind in this condition? I remember you that kind of case exist in our world, there is many of it, (so this story first deserve to approach this topic that make a good point for me) I dont find her sympethetic, at start i was bored to see another cliché, like a femal version of zenos, but after seeing her background i found that more interesting. Yotsuyu has been tortur and captiv by two very criminal person who deserved 150 time their fuking death. Of cours he doesnt excuse her own crime, i dont excuse my father crime because he got an asshole as father too, but still we can understand. And the major problem showed by yotsuyu, is the fact that the society did nothing to save her at all, and today this might be highlight some probleme of this kind on our current society.

How many people heard their neighboor beat their wife or children, and do nothing?

i see her story like an social idea from the author and an criticism of traditionnal society in asia, from what i heard from south korea japan or even china, this is not surprising. So i think we better see yotsuyu story like an engage from the writter on this topic, more than something to be "original" or deeper narrativ.

[Kazhim]

I liked Yotsuyu and hate Fordola. They are both absolute monsters who are utterly irredeemable. The only difference is in how they're perceived by themselves and others.

Yotsuyu knows that she's a monster, she just doesn't give a crap. The world hurt her, so she's going to hurt back. That's obviously a terrible excuse, but at least she's honest with herself. Perhaps more importantly, none of the other story characters ever forgave her for her myriad of crimes. The only reason they didn't just instantly execute her is because while she was in their custody, she was arguably a completely different person.

Fordola is just as big of a monster, but she tries to hide her monstrous deeds behind a mask of honor. She's somehow convinced herself that siding with the empire and killing her own people is not only morally justified, it's actually good for the Ala Mhiggans! But unlike Yotsuyu, Fordola gets to live on, and in relative freedom at that. The story tries to paint her unjustifiable crimes as just a mistake of youth. "Oh you killed, beat and imprisoned your countrymen for years? And for what turned out was literally no reason at all? That's okay, we all make mistakes!"

Yotsuyu is a villain, and I can respect her as a villain. Fordola is just as bad, but she's supposed to be this weird anti-hero, and I can't respect her at all.

yes i understand

but that why i like fordola too, it because she doesnt hold back her decision, and go to the end, yes we can see her view like a way to l ie on herself, but that not important for me, the most important is the way how she act and assume her decision.

[Nestama]

It's in the Tales of the Storm thing, a serie of short stories around Stormblood, and there's one about Fordola being in an army regiment, being heroic and all. Quite lame in my opinion.

I liked Fordola, precisely because she is a monster. I think I talked about that some time ago and said something I wanted to sound witty like "If you actually feel something for a character, good or bad, then it's a good character". Fordola has a sad background, she grows evil and her only contact to reality is heroic (what she thinks so at least) combat. That's why she was a good soldier for Gaius, then Zenos, and now wherever she has been placed. Otherwise, she is constantly enduring her harsh past and her evil decisions. She's tragic in a way, and she trapped herself in this cycle. I did not feel the game was forcing us to forgive her or anything, she's most likely silenced past 4.1 when they awkwardly showed the "good" within her. I'm ok with that.

While now that we are facing different baddies... Solus is the stereotype of mad funny villain (Joker from Batman etc.), which I find dull. But Varis gained a bit of depth in that context.

Ah, I see. So she's basically given the choice to work for the Immortal Flames (life threatening work) and serve out her sentence (likely impossible to clear due to her past actions), or to be put to death. Not exactly "going on adventures with Arenvald" as Beckett worded it. I guess this means we'll be seeing her in 4.55 MSQ.

[Kazhim]

Who knows, we have one more major patch in Stormblood, we may get to see what becomes of Fordola. I bet she'll be redeemed somehow; probably through sacrificing herself to save Princess Peach.... er Lyse. (seriously Lyse has only been useful in terrifying some Namazu)

oh yes

and now i skip all scene where she is, i cant see her face anymore, i want to slap her face , dam how can a caracter bring me so much hate by be so dumb and useless. so now i dont consider her as a character belonging to the lore, she doesnt exxist for me , i just ignor the character in all scene.

[Kazhim]

That's far more inline with Yotsuyu's way of thinking. Some Ala Mhigans did her harm, therefor all Ala Mhigans must suffer.

But that's not actually what Fordola's motivations are. She makes her countrymen suffer under the guise of helping them. Killing, imprisoning and allowing the rape of her own people while convincing herself it's for their own good is, even in the most positive light, extremely foolish. And it's okay to have a story where characters do foolish things, but it's not okay when those characters don't get proper punishments for their actions.

well i would like that someone punish lyse to be dumb

and for now fordola has nothing and no freedom, so that sound a kind of punishment for me, even, be beated by this dumbass lyse the most horrible punishment we could make to her.