Gunbreaker gameplay hope and expectations

[Izsha]

I honestly would be quite content if wars "position" was nerfed because other tanks received the tools. Again the snap aggro example. I want all 4 tanks to be able to generate threat without significant dps sacrifices in 5.0 just like war can do now. If that 'lowers wars position' so be it. I'm tired of pulling everything in the game anyway. But pld shouldn't have to sacrifice something to gain access to the ability to pull a monster any more than war needs to sacrifice something to keep the ability to pull a monster. Evening the playing field by default either nerfs the strong or buffs the weak. But that's 2 ways of saying "balance". Semantics be damned, buff or nerf dont matter. The only actual effect buffs vs nerfs have is on the power of tanks as a unit, as a role. If you think tanks are to strong then we need to nerf. If they arent then buff away. But that is not actually a question about tank balance. That is a question on the power of tank as a role. One that se seems to believe should be far weaker than the players do based on their constant struggle with tank damage and accessories. But that is a completely different discussion and should he treated as such imo.

4 tanks. Not 4 niches. Numbers dont matter because theres a reset coming and se will set the tank role power bar. So the best thing to ask for is 4 balanced tanks that can perform all tank functions.
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Edit: on the definition of niches, I think part of the confusion is people wanting tank variety, but think to narrowly and use tanking functions as a niche and each tank should get one. Offensive, defensive, aggro, support, etc. I think those are bad 'niches' because those are just naming tank functions and calling it a niche.

What I would consider more reasonable for niches are essentially playstyle and those should be varied and unique. Every tank should do damage, but se can keep war as the burst tank as part of its berserk/release the beast/barbarian thing. Sure. Berserk has been a core piece of warrior forever. Sure give it the burst niche. But sure as heck dont make it the 'offensive tank' niche. That's just asking for trouble. Similarly, give it some party support like warcries so its has the shout (like diablo 2 style shouts) niche. Sure that can be fun. But dont make it the 'support tank'. That's trouble.

Niches should be styles. Flavor. Character identities. Not tank functions. That way balance and uniqueness can be adjusted separately without excessive homogenization.

[Lyth]

I don't think anyone was arguing for tanks to have "niches" in core tanking functions. Those aren't niches. That's what we have now, and that's what we're arguing against. The instant that you define a tank as being "the dps tank": i.e. best burst, best sustain, mandatory raid dps buffs, it just overshadows the other tanks.

Cover is a good example of an action which gives job identity. Many tanks and healers have ways in which they can give party members shields. But Cover remains the only way that you can transfer damage from another player to yourself. This results in some interesting situations with PLD where you can solve mechanics differently.

Is this a "core function"? No. We can get by without it. I don't think WAR needs it's own personal copy of Cover, any more than it needed its own personal copy of Divine Veil. Let PLD have this little thing which lets it shine. I also feel like the idea has room expanded on. What if Passage let you transfer damage from a number of players, as an AoE Cover?

In Heavensward, knockbacks were not as ubiquitous as they are now, but every tank had some way of dealing with them. DRK's Plunge was unique in that your knockback prevention tool was also a gap closer. This made it the most mobile tank. The added mobility wasn't essential (and still isn't), but it gave you something unique. When Onslaught was added in Stormblood, it was just a better version of Plunge. It has a shorter recast than most melee dps gap closers, it's not a dps loss to hold it, and it has a longer range. It also generates enmity and had a much shorter animation lock, until we requested parity back in 3.2.

It would be one thing if we were clearly moving towards something more homogenous. Every tank has a gap closer. Every tank has a raidwide bubble. Every tank has a Fell Cleave. But it's very, very skewed. Onslaught is a better Plunge, but it's not like PLD has a gap closer. Shake it Off is a better Divine Veil, but it's not like DRK has an equivalent.

It's not like you didn't try to share, of course. Every tank has a Fell Cleave equivalent this expansion. They're just not allowed to surpass Fell Cleave itself. Because, you know, identity reasons. Kind of the reasoning that we should have applied to the other two tanks.

If you think something is a core function, homogenise it across the board. If it's not, then don't hand out more powerful versions to your favourite job. It just erodes everyone else's identity. It's okay to see a PLD Cover someone and say "I really wish that I was on PLD so I could do that." Look, don't touch. Every tank should have their moments to shine.

[Kalise]

Niches should be styles. Flavor. Character identities. Not tank functions. That way balance and uniqueness can be adjusted separately without excessive homogenization.

Tank functions can be a niche. In the sense that HOW a tank performs a function gives it a niche.

For example, there might be a specific mechanic in a specific encounter where the MT gets hit by a massive healing taken debuff that can't be Esuna'd alongside a TB. While, WAR and DRK would be able to soak the TB, they'd need a tank swap right after so they don't get murdered when regular damage started. While PLD would have a niche in this mechanic by the way of having Hallowed Ground to soak the TB without a care about needing healing right after (To say nothing of Cover either).

That's the kind of Tank Function niche that would be appropriate. Something that will give a Tank a slight edge in fringe cases based on how they perform the function based on their unique design (I.e. WAR having fat stacks of health and being bursty thanks to Berserk. PLD having a bunch of mitigation and dual damage types. DRK having self shields and self healing and fast attacks focused around resource management to adapt between burst or sustained output)

Outside of that, Tank functions should all be relatively close. DPS output (Burst vs Sustained doesn't matter if overall DPS ends up being equal. I.e. If WAR's sustained damage is so bad that its IR burst during mass buff stacking brings it up to 6k DPS while say, a DRK is just thwacking away with sustained DPS that averages out to 6k even if they can't capitalize on buff stacking as much then they're balanced), Enmity output (Snap and sustained), Mitigation (Both for TB's and sustained mitigation (If it ever becomes relevant again)), Party Support (Including ways to aid the MT deal with TB's) all should be roughly on par with each other. With the niche being how these things are performed being differentiated so it's not just copy/paste skills across the board as well as maybe one or two extra things outside these functions that have fringe usage (It's important that "Niche" bonuses that a Tank has over the others be fringe cases. If a particular bonus becomes too widespread, you create imbalance skewed towards the one tank that has that bonus. An example being how PLD essentially has a monopoly on support skills to use as OT, thus making it the objectively best OT)