Gender locked race?

[Tharne]

Difference in this situation being that we know they did development work on male Viera; remember that concept art? We have seen male/female Viera options referenced in the code via that bug. We have seen lore dumps on male Viera in game. We have hard evidence that male Viera were being developed in game. The onus is on you to provide hard evidence and arguments as to why development work on them was abandoned and not simply make 'what if' claims based on personal opinions and bias.

Concept art =/= developed in-game. Also a lot of concepts end up not being used, that the point of a concept. The male/female in the code could possibly be for security.
And yes the lore dumps, Yoshida said that they gave some hints inside. After reading them for the first time yesterday and having no positive nor negative feeling toward the male Viera subject, the one line that stuck out in this lore dump was the last one : "They simply do not exist to us."

[Lacan]

Concept art =/= developed in-game. Also a lot of concepts end up not being used, that the point of a concept. The male/female in the code could possibly be for security.
And yes the lore dumps, Yoshida said that they gave some hints inside. After reading them for the first time yesterday and having no positive nor negative feeling toward the male Viera subject, the one line that stuck out in this lore dump was the last one : "They simply do not exist to us."

I really don't think you can use that line to say we aren't getting the males though. It just further describes their culture. They wanted to emphasis how reclusive the race is. The females are reclusive, and the males are even more so. I don't see why they would go into detail about how the males operate at all if they were going to just exclude them entirely like that.

[Karl0217]

Concept art =/= developed in-game. Also a lot of concepts end up not being used, that the point of a concept. The male/female in the code could possibly be for security.
And yes the lore dumps, Yoshida said that they gave some hints inside. After reading them for the first time yesterday and having no positive nor negative feeling toward the male Viera subject, the one line that stuck out in this lore dump was the last one : "They simply do not exist to us."

When he said the line "They simply do not exist to us" he was talking specifically about his time in Dalamasca. Full lore quote, not just the part that people keep ripping out of context:

I spent many a moon in the Desert Sapphire and while I saw all manner of wonderous creatures, not once did I lay mine eyes on a male Viera, nor did I hear of one living in the city. They simply do not exist to us.

He wasn't talking about the male Viera population in the entire world, just what the population was specifically in Dalamasca. It has the same importance as somebody in Ul'Dah prior to Yugiri's arrival claiming they never met an Au Ra before and saying they might as well not exist to them. I wonder how relevant a statement about their numbers in Dalamasca is to their numbers in their homelands.

More to the point we are heading into Viera Territory, the Ra'Tika Greatwood, next expansion. Territory that the same lore dump says that all the male Viera guard and shoot outsiders on-sight when they enter. You really think we are not going to run into any hostile male Viera NPCs, who all serve as the border patrol and swear not to let evil encroach on said territory, while waltzing through the Greatwood after somebody, probably the Imperial Garlean Army, leveled one of their villages?

As for the concept art, the thing you are overlooking is that the female version of the concept art was used in the game.

[cicatriz313]

When he said the line "They simply do not exist to us" he was talking specifically about his time in Dalamasca. Full lore quote, not just the part that people keep ripping out of context:



He wasn't talking about the male Viera population in the entire world, just what the population was specifically in Dalamasca.


As for the concept art, the thing you are overlooking is that the female version of the concept art was used in the game.

You can't say read the full lore and ignore the 3 statements the dramaturge makes before that one. He literally says the males don't even meet with their kin aside from breeding. They live alone and one would be foolish to go seek them, because you wouldn't see one (or you'd be killed.) People are focusing on this death part but it doesn't make the first part meaningless. It's not just Dalmasca he's talking about he's making a statement about society in general and using Dalmasca because this is supposed to be an avatar of Matsuno.

No one is overlooking the fact that they use a similar model as one of the concept art pieces to create Viera. Like of course they did. That's the point of concept art. You're just choosing to completely ignore the other pieces of concept art revealed in that same panel that show that they don't use everything they showed...

[Gwenorai]

You can't say read the full lore and ignore the 3 statements the dramaturge makes before that one. He literally says the males don't even meet with their kin aside from breeding. They live alone and one would be foolish to go seek them, because you wouldn't see one (or you'd be killed.) People are focusing on this death part but it doesn't make the first part meaningless. It's not just Dalmasca he's talking about he's making a statement about society in general and using Dalmasca because this is supposed to be an avatar of Matsuno.

No one is overlooking the fact that they use a similar model as one of the concept art pieces to create Viera. Like of course they did. That's the point of concept art. You're just choosing to completely ignore the other pieces of concept art revealed in that same panel that show that they don't use everything they showed...

He also talks in past tense, states that before all of this if you left the wood you were a Viera no longer. Times have changed however and that's no longer the case. It also states that a Viera can seek the aid of outsiders if the forest/their people are in danger. The men leave not because they want to but out of necessity. They are the first line of defence and most of the time, the last.

You don't go into those woods looking for a male Viera - I think that's just him adding in 'drama'. Fact is if you go into those woods you're probably going to die unless you are escorted by a Viera or have their blessing.

I really don't understand why people are getting confused about the 'They do not exist to us' part. It's an old saying of course and not what we use today. But it's how someone describes an object/person/place that is known to exist by hearsay but hasn't been seen by any outsiders; and if they have, they haven't survived to relay the tale.

Example; a tribe on an island that hasn't been inhabited by the modern world. They have customs and their own religion. We will never make contact with them and only a handful will see them. We know they exist by hearsay, secondhand experience and obvious physical evidence. But, they're not on our radar, they are air and only matter to those who actually go and seek them out. Those who do try to seek them out end up attacked and killed.
This is a true scenario btw, there's a place like this - forgot the islands name though. Give it a google.

Let's switch back to Viera; you can see the similarities. Hearsay is the females talking about them; secondhand experience is the females again. The evidence is the young kits and the corpses of the fools that tried to cause the jungle/wood harm and were killed.

Now let's break it down.
Lore states they exist; he goes on to say they exist.
He then goes 'they do not exist to us'
It's either one or the other buddy, there is no in-between. Dramaturge is just being dramatic, hence his title. Either that or he's drunk.

[cicatriz313]

Now let's break it down.
Lore states they exist; he goes on to say they exist.
He then goes 'they do not exist to us'
It's either one or the other buddy, there is no in-between. Dramaturge is just being dramatic, hence his title. Either that or he's drunk.

No one is saying they don't exist though. The lore does state they exist. The lore also makes it pretty obvious that they are less likely to interact with us than female Viera. Now I don't know about you, but I think lore that explicitly states how separated male Viera is, months before Viera launches, which Yoshi apparently explicitly stated to look at, is more indicative of no PLAYABLE male Viera, than indicative of them being playable. They could exist in game lore and yet not be playable.

[Lacan]

No one is saying they don't exist though. The lore does state they exist. The lore also makes it pretty obvious that they are less likely to interact with us than female Viera. Now I don't know about you, but I think lore that explicitly states how separated male Viera is, months before Viera launches, which Yoshi apparently explicitly stated to look at, is more indicative of no PLAYABLE male Viera, than indicative of them being playable. They could exist in game lore and yet not be playable.

See, that's something that depends on how you interpret it. When I read it I didn't get that notion at all, and a lot of other people didn't get that idea either. It just looked to be laying out how the society worked. I was expecting male viera to have a culture like that just from how the race was depicted in FF XII. Reclusive forest guardians just made sense to me. I don't see how them being described that way makes them less likely to be playable. The females are described as reclusive as well.

[cicatriz313]

See, that's something that depends on how you interpret it. When I read it I didn't get that notion at all, and a lot of other people didn't get that idea either. It just looked to be laying out how the society worked. I was expecting male viera to have a culture like that just from how the race was depicted in FF XII. Reclusive forest guardians just made sense to me. I don't see how them being described that way makes them less likely to be playable. The females are described as reclusive as well.

Yeah, I mean take it as you want it. I'm sure anyone who wants male Viera will read it your way. Seems pretty obvious to me that a "times are changing" matriarch society is more likely to interact with the WoL than counterparts who live in solitude for 99% of their lives, but maybe you're right. For like the fourth time, I'm not using lore to say they're not going to be playable. I'm saying that it seems more like the lore is stating that they won't be playable than that the lore is stating that they will be playable. Overall, lore is just lore.

[Gwenorai]

No one is saying they don't exist though. The lore does state they exist. The lore also makes it pretty obvious that they are less likely to interact with us than female Viera. Now I don't know about you, but I think lore that explicitly states how separated male Viera is, months before Viera launches, which Yoshi apparently explicitly stated to look at, is more indicative of no PLAYABLE male Viera, than indicative of them being playable. They could exist in game lore and yet not be playable.

Oh? The Green Word states that a Viera can seek outsiders aid and thus leave the wood. All Viera are linked into the Wood. Male Viera has gone through intense conditioning where they follow the Green Word to the letter. They don't do it by choice, I don't think any child wants to be dragged from their mother to a life of solitude and death. Females also have this; they have the matriarch and their families making them stay - only those who have aid or are strong enough to leave actually do so. But let's go back to the males and how they're conditioned to do the following; protect the wood, protect their families, kill all intruders, breed and raise the next generation of wood wardens. Somewhere down the line they adapted to this way of life, something caused them to end up like this. More than likely the loss of their original home.


Let's talk about the Green Word and how the Jungle speaks to the Viera. The Jungle being some sort of motherly entity. It's a spirit, not one that is necessarily evil, but more like the Spirits of the Girdania woods. As they communicate with the Padajj, the Jungle/Wood communicates with the Viera. Instead of strange emotions, however, the Jungle speaks with actual words. If the Wood is a spirit a benevolent spirit tied into either the crystal of light or the crystal of darkness. If the one lone WoD/WoL is a Viera, it is going to tell them to leave. Final Fantasy has always been about fate and destiny.

Since in a RPG MMO, only your character counts. One lone Viera - your viera - isn't going to set off the huge balance and retcon the lore, which they are already retconning. Before if a Viera left the wood they were 'dead' to their tribe, now that has changed. As for NPC male Viera? What would bring them together? War. A need to survive. They are not stupid.

Of course, if they add in NPC Viera to the story since we're going into their woods. Then it raises the whole, well, wait a minute Yoshida - you found a design you like! That's great! Now, why haven't you made them playable?

[Tharne]

Dramaturge is just being dramatic, hence his title. Either that or he's drunk.

He's also meant (imo) to be a "sub in" for Matsuno and the phrase "They simply do not exist to us." could imply that they do not exist for the dev team by going a little meta in the game, i.e. : We won't make them playable or not even make a model for them.
There are a lot of hints inside his monologue that points towards : You will never see them even if they exist.

I'm just saying, Yoshida said that they gave hints there about the state of Male Viera, I just don't want people to end up with a Pikachu meme face if they say that you won't be able to make Male Viera. From what we have, I expect to not get them and will be happy if we do.