Please no more Eureka!

[Reynhart]

First off savage and ultimate were both better received than Eureka by the players.

It's because non hardcore players understood that these weren't for them and didn't come here complaining that it didn't match their goals and that they were forced to do it to obtain a Savage/Ultimate weapon.

Also more players in one =/= it is better

I didn't say that, it's just nonsense to conclude that low percentage = failed content, since several content are expected to only have a small fraction of the playerbase. But again, only Eureka haters conveniently forgot that Eureka was advertised as a niche content from the very beginning.

If they put a bunch of other fancy garbo into the 12S chest you'd see more people trying their hand too.

No, people would complain that they had to clear a hard content for a mount, hairstyle, or whatever...exactly what they did with Coil, thus, the reason why Story/Savage was created.

Second, using story modes (which did not exist for 1.x raids in case you have forgotten) in your argument is plain stupid since they take significantly less time to complete than one Eureka zone.

No, using story mode is relevant because we compare story content. I also could have said that you need to clear Steps of Faith to reach Ala Mhigo, because it's a leveling content. But I guess it's far too complicated to anticipate that you had to reach level cap to have access to the next leveling zone the first time they said there was a leveling system, right ?

You don't need to clear the last savage raid of each tier to start the next one anymore.

That is irrelevant, since there's no lore connection between each tier of Savage, contrary to Eureka. Also, Savage is unrestricted because they don't want to force people clearing hard content. And frankly, leveling and clearing the Eureka strory is far from hard or time consuming. You don't need to do the relic to have access to Hydatos.

Did not enjoy/bother with Delta/Sigma Savage but want that BIS weapon now? No problem, complete the super easy story modes and you can get started with Alpha.

Oh, so you're upset that you have to do the Anemos weapon to reach the Hydatos weapon ? That's the whole concept of the relic...

[PortalScience]

These people saying relic was worth than tomestones clearly did not play at all during HW. Yes, relics were delayed a HALF patch (3 weeks) after savage starting with zenith, but it was only a half patch. Upgrading a tomestone weapon without savage is always a full X.1 patch behind (12 weeks).

12-3 = 9 weeks. For 9 out of 12 weeks, the relic is tied as the highest ilvl weapon in the game with savage (which is still tied for highest level, and was the solo highest lvl for the first 3). This was the formula for the remainder of ARR after zenith, and all of HW after they caught up (initial release was late, so this was around the time of hyperconductive. The "complete", the "sharpened" and the "lux" weapons in HW were all BiS tied with savage for the majority of the HW lifecycle. Only in Eureka has it been so delayed that at NO point in the Anemos/Pagos/Pyros timeline was the relic highest ilvl.

[Reynhart]

Yes, relics were delayed a HALF patch (3 weeks) after savage starting with zenith, but it was only a half patch. Upgrading a tomestone weapon without savage is always a full X.1 patch behind (12 weeks).

• Anima was released in 3.15. 5 months after Savage, for an i210 weapon. At that time, you could have an upgraded tome 1 month earlier, and it's without counting the actual time to get the Anima weapon, with the mysterious step.
  
• The next step was released in 3.25, 5 weeks after the new tome weapon for an i230. So, the Anima weapon was better than the basic tome weapon for at best, 2 weeks, and that's if you did it by grinding tomestone and not waiting for the Archmagus lockout. And Midan weapons were way above at i245.
  
• The following step was released in 3.3 for an i240 weapon, so at the same time that you could upgrade your tome weapon with Mhach...for the dreaded Umbrite steps, requiring lots of tomestones. So, you'd probably have your weapon later, and, again, not that much better than a tome weapon, considering the work you had to do to obtain it.
  
• Next step, 3.45, 5 weeks after the new tome for an i260 weapon. So, again, Anima was better for at best, 2 weeks than a basic tome weapon. And Alexandrian weapons peaked at i275.
  
• Next step, 3.5, for an i270 weapon. The same time where Dun Scaith allows for an upgraded tome weapon...so the same ilvl.
  
• Last step 3.55 for the Lux weapon.

So, basically, the Anima was on par with a tome weapon for most of its lifetime, sometimes even on par with a non-upgraded tome weapon. It was only better for a few weeks while waiting for your last raid tokens, or at the very end of HW cycle, month after the highest content was cleared. As for the Savage weapon, the first one was tied with the Gordian weapon (Since it didn't have the 5 ilvl bump), and apart from that, only the very last step had the same ilvl.

So, in fact, you didn't even check your facts before claiming that people "did not play at all during HW". Nice one !

[Legion88]

• Anima was released in 3.15. 5 months after Savage, for an i210 weapon. At that time, you could have an upgraded tome 1 month earlier, and it's without counting the actual time to get the Anima weapon, with the mysterious step.
  
• The next step was released in 3.25, 5 weeks after the tome upgrade for an i230. So, the Anima weapon was better than the basic tome weapon for at best, 2 weeks, and that's if you did it by grinding tomestone and not waiting for the Archmagus lockout. And Midan weapons were way above at i245.
  
• The following step was released in 3.3 for an i240 weapon, so at the same time that you could upgrade your tome weapon with Mhach...for the dreaded Umbrite steps, requiring lots of tomestones. So, you'd probably have your weapon later, and, again, not that much better than a tome weapon, considering the work you had to do to obtain it.
  
• Next step, 3.45, 5 weeks after the new tome for an i260 weapon. So, again, Anima was better for at best, 2 weeks than a basic tome weapon. And Alexandrian weapons peaked at i275.
  
• Next step, 3.5, for an i270 weapon. The same time where Dun Scaith allows for an upgraded tome weapon...so the same ilvl.
  
• Last step 3.55 for the Lux weapon.

So, basically, the Anima was on par with a tome weapon for most of its lifetime, sometimes even on par with a non-upgraded tome weapon. It was only better for a few weeks while waiting for your last raid tokens, or at the very end of HW cycle, month after the highest content was cleared. As for the Savage weapon, the first one was tied with the Gordian weapon (Since it didn't have the 5 ilvl bump), and apart from that, only the very last step had the same ilvl.

So, in fact, you didn't even check your facts before claiming that people "did not play at all during HW". Nice one !

The weapon upgrade through 24 mans was always introduced at the nex even patch or a minor patch few weeks before the next even patch

[Reynhart]

The weapon upgrade through 24 mans was always introduced at the nex even patch or a minor patch few weeks before the next even patch

Ok, my bad. So at 3.5, you could expect people having an Anima higher than an upgraded Tome Weapon. For 3.3, considering the time it takes to do the Umbrite step, the upgraded weapon at 3.38 was a better alternative.

Anima was still far from BiS "for the majority of HW".

And, I also excluded Primal Weapons, that were, at worst only 5 ilvl lower than the Anima, but didn't require all the jumps through hoops to obtain.

[Bobkitty]

It's because non hardcore players understood that these weren't for them and didn't come here complaining that it didn't match their goals and that they were forced to do it to obtain a Savage/Ultimate weapon.

I didn't say that, it's just nonsense to conclude that low percentage = failed content, since several content are expected to only have a small fraction of the playerbase. But again, only Eureka haters conveniently forgot that Eureka was advertised as a niche content from the very beginning.

No, people would complain that they had to clear a hard content for a mount, hairstyle, or whatever...exactly what they did with Coil, thus, the reason why Story/Savage was created.

No, using story mode is relevant because we compare story content. I also could have said that you need to clear Steps of Faith to reach Ala Mhigo, because it's a leveling content. But I guess it's far too complicated to anticipate that you had to reach level cap to have access to the next leveling zone the first time they said there was a leveling system, right ?

That is irrelevant, since there's no lore connection between each tier of Savage, contrary to Eureka. Also, Savage is unrestricted because they don't want to force people clearing hard content. And frankly, leveling and clearing the Eureka strory is far from hard or time consuming. You don't need to do the relic to have access to Hydatos.

Oh, so you're upset that you have to do the Anemos weapon to reach the Hydatos weapon ? That's the whole concept of the relic...

1 + 2 . Except it was not marketed at the "small fraction" of the playerbase. You don't create massive landscapes for over 100 players per instance, advertise open world exploration and story, put relics behind it which is mostly for glamour purposes anyway then throw other aesthetics trinkets along with that - these are things the casual base tend to find an appeal in. If the devs have ever said it's for a niche group of players then their actions have utterly contradicted their words thus far.

3. And people complained they had to do "uninteresting content" for those items, not much different from "hard content" if they aren't into it either way.

4 + 5. And I'll repeat again, it's a garbage comparison, especially against streamlined story content. The time spent on the story of Eureka is vastly minuscule vs the time spent grinding, much like relic/anima before it. By that design standard it is an endgame grind activity with some story weaved into it that I doubt the majority of players are actually there for.

Connecting the story area-to-area, weapon-to-weapon was a bad choice from the start. It sounds good on paper but impractical and rigid in hindsight. Reasons for this at 6.
Also, if they don't want to "force people to clear hard content", then why coerce them into getting through boring grind content? That seems rather poorly thought out.

6. Which is a blatantly flawed concept considering each previous area will be gradually deserted whenever a new one comes out. As grouping is remarkably more efficient this creates a tedious and dull process for anyone starting their relic late or were left behind and want to catch up, not helped by the unnecessary leveling system despite nerfs (which really is just band-aid on a bullet wound).

The ability to skip areas/weapons is not really a bad idea when:
1) They're outdated enough to be put in a museum
2) You don't like the appearance of a certain piece of gear
3) You don't like anemos/pagos but willing to give pyros a shot cause it looks more appealing or your friends are there etc.

If the result is improved gameplay then sacrificing some "lore connection" is worth the price. But keep defending old/dated, rigid designs as you see fit.