The Road to 5.0

[ObsidianFire]

On the one hand, Unakalhai is trying to kill Regulus, so that might be something Elidibus wanted him to do. On the other hand, Regulus tries to kill the Warrior of Light several times over the course of the Warring Triad narrative because we keep getting in his way of bringing back primal imprisoning technology to Varis (technology that doesn't even permanently solve the problem). The Warrior of Light isn't someone Elidibus wants dead at that point in the MSQ yet. Killing Regulus is the most direct way of preventing him from killing the WoL. And if anyone knows how badly the world needs a Warrior of Light, it's Unakalhai. He outright says that one of the reasons the 13th Shard was Flooded with Darkness was because he was too young to stand against it. Unakalhai has enough personal reasons to see the Warrior of Light not die for me to think that killing Regula could just be something he decided to do himself.

As far as I have been able to tell, Regula is Varis' enforcer. Varis put Regula in a place of power and Regula is determined to pay back Varis for that. Partially because they've always been friends, but also because Varis pulled strings for Regula to be a legatus. Without Varis' influence. Regula wouldn't be where he is. Every time Regula talks about us being useful, he mentions it in the context of us being useful to Varis. He never mentions us being useful for our own sake. Given what we now know Varis was backing (cloning, the Resonance, etc.) that scares the hell out of me. I also think it says a lot that Varis has never brought up Regula. At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if he thought Regula was just another useful pawn for him to use, similar to how Varis thinks of Zenos.

[LineageRazor]

As far as the actual conflict between Hydaelyn and Zodiark is concerned, I'm still not convinced that Hydaelyn can be trusted but I wouldn't exactly put my faith in the Ascians and Zodiark either. My hope is seeing Hydaelyn and Zodiark's influence rendered obsolete and for mortals to be free of the burden that is religion. Perhaps not immediately but by the end of the game's lifespan.

Wait - what does removing Hy's and Zo's influence have to do with freeing mortals of the burden of religion? As near as I can tell, neither Hy or Zo ask for worship; while the Ascians seem to have a cult-like reverence for Zo, not even the folks who know of Hy seem inclined to worship her.

If Hy and Zo and all the Ascians were just to vanish today, religion would still be alive and well. The Beastmen would worship their Primals, Eorzeans would worship the Twelve, the Au Ra of the Steppe worship Azim and Nhama, and so on and so forth. In fact, the Garleans seem to be the only devoted Atheists on the planet, and their lack of worship is not so much rooted in the belief that these entities do not exist, but that whether they exist or not worshiping them is dangerous due to the potential for Primal summoning.

It's not even clear that the world needs to be freed from Hy and Zo's influence. It's not certain that Zo is influencing the planet, or even wants to - the Ascians have been doing that for him, and how he feels about it is unknown (possibly even to the Ascians). Hy's influence seems to be strictly limited to what it takes to counter the Ascians, and given the lyrics to Answers it seems likely she'd be content to be hands-free if it wasn't for the need to stop the Calamities from coming.

This game definitely does not treat religion or worship as evils that need to be rooted out. Even in the case of the Ishgard papacy, it was clear that the wrongs being perpetrated were the results of corrupt humans, misusing the power structure that had been established. Halone is not evil, nor is worship of her.

"Religion is wrong" is not one of the lessons of this game, and I doubt that's going to change!

[Anonymoose]

I proposed the theory a while back that Regula was killed as a consequence of Elidibus' scheming as a deliberate move. I'm glad to see someone else bring it up as it was shot down at the time.

Why would it have been? Unukalhai and Urianger both verbally acknowledged it.

[Theodric]

"Religion is wrong" is not one of the lessons of this game, and I doubt that's going to change!

You're free to your opinion and interpretation in that regard just as I am free to mine. It could go either way, especially with the lengthy track record of JRPG's - including Final Fantasy games - revealing that benevolent deities weren't so benevolent after all.

Why would it have been? Unukalhai and Urianger both verbally acknowledged it.

One can only wonder!

[Lauront]

Wait - what does removing Hy's and Zo's influence have to do with freeing mortals of the burden of religion? As near as I can tell, neither Hy or Zo ask for worship; while the Ascians seem to have a cult-like reverence for Zo, not even the folks who know of Hy seem inclined to worship her.

If Hy and Zo and all the Ascians were just to vanish today, religion would still be alive and well. The Beastmen would worship their Primals, Eorzeans would worship the Twelve, the Au Ra of the Steppe worship Azim and Nhama, and so on and so forth. In fact, the Garleans seem to be the only devoted Atheists on the planet, and their lack of worship is not so much rooted in the belief that these entities do not exist, but that whether they exist or not worshiping them is dangerous due to the potential for Primal summoning.

It's not even clear that the world needs to be freed from Hy and Zo's influence. It's not certain that Zo is influencing the planet, or even wants to - the Ascians have been doing that for him, and how he feels about it is unknown (possibly even to the Ascians). Hy's influence seems to be strictly limited to what it takes to counter the Ascians, and given the lyrics to Answers it seems likely she'd be content to be hands-free if it wasn't for the need to stop the Calamities from coming.

This game definitely does not treat religion or worship as evils that need to be rooted out. Even in the case of the Ishgard papacy, it was clear that the wrongs being perpetrated were the results of corrupt humans, misusing the power structure that had been established. Halone is not evil, nor is worship of her.

"Religion is wrong" is not one of the lessons of this game, and I doubt that's going to change!

Besides comforting - and sometimes very dangerous - delusions, what is it really adding to the lives of most Eorzeans? Essentially what you're saying is that mere belief is harmless. Sure, but then what is its point? It really becomes a form of escapism and little more, with potentially very dangerous implications when it does turn to Primal summoning.

Zodiark and Hydaelyn differ to Primals, and most "gods", in that they're autonomously powerful. Zodiark perhaps less so following his ejection and imprisonment in the moon. Is it surprising that she'd be content if no one were opposing her?

I'm thinking that we haven't yet got the whole story on what really happened with Zodiark and that his growth in power may have been more of a natural progression of his maturation than ill intent. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if we're going to have to find a way to effect the Rejoining anyway so as to avoid recurring floods and instabilities, but just not the Ascian way, a belief which for what it's worth is not unique to them and is what everyone currently believes would be required to bring it about. The Ascians strike me as WoLs who turned to WoDs, and then transcended further, and may be going overboard in their zeal and misinterpreting their god's will - and I wonder whether Elidibus will diverge from the rest on this point.

[Cilia]

I don't recall anyone, anywhere, speculating in-universe that van Hydrus was sent to Azys Lla to get him killed, or that Elidibus sent Unukalhai up there to make sure it happened. I acknowledge it's a definite possibility, but I'd like a reference before declaring it fact. There's too many variables to make it an intended consequence, IMO.

... and I would counsel against calling religion a "burden." Regardless of personal feelings and beliefs, that's a very touchy subject, and this isn't really the time or place for discussing the merits of religion (or lack therof).

[Anonymoose]

I'd like a reference before declaring it fact.

No sense in encouraging people to demand citations of anything I claim if I'm not willing to go digging, eh!?

Set-up:

Unukalhai
I chose to join my master, and act as his instrument on this star.

Clumsy shoehorning of Elidibus's orders into conversation as if his own idea, fools no one.

Unukalhai
Before all else, we must move to safeguard the knowledge which enabled the Allagans to harness primal energies. Of particular concern is the “Genesis Expression”─an aetherochemical formula that allowed the scholars of yore to create substance from nothingness...

Y'shtola
I know of no such formula. Whence came you by this information? From your enigmatic master, perchance?

Unukalhai
He did furnish me with that morsel, yes. And knowing exactly which prize the legatus now seeks enables us to predict his position. Do you not see? We have been gifted the perfect opportunity to remove the head of an entire legion!

Krile
I didn't think you quite so bloodthirsty, Unukalhai. Surely safeguarding secrets should take precedence over slaying legatuses?

ALMOST blatant admission

Unukalhai
You accuse me of masterminding this day's events?

Urianger
The plan may have been thy master's, but the deed was thine. Thou didst lure the legatus of the VIth Legion into a trap from which he was not intended to emerge. 'Tis plain to me now that thy seeming opportunism in proposing his elimination was feigned, and that his death was the object of thy plan from the first.

<SNIP>

Unukalhai
Urianger is correct in his suspicions.

Bonus: In retrospect of 4.4, wow, Elidibus never really gave this kid anything close to an accurate big-picture.

You Garleans never learn. You covet the means to enslave primals─but in your headlong dash to control that which you do not understand, you show less wisdom than the very beast tribes that summoned them!

#ElidibusIsASnake

[Cilia]

Point taken.

I still feel there are too many variables for Elidibus to have banked on that, but... ehh, it's not worth arguing.

[Dualblade]

Best way to take it is that getting Regula away from Varis and thus isolating him from his closest friend would make it easier to manipulate him. Regula living though could still cause unrest in the ranks due to his willingness to destroy the Allag tech he was ordered to obtain (which by all rights even if it was eventually failing held up for THOUSANDS of years, its damn good.) Either Varis punishes him, putting a wedge between the two or he doesn't/possibly rewards him, which given that apparently other parts of the military thought Regula rose to his post because of his friendship with Varis could lead to dissension within the ranks.

[Alexandre_Noireau]

I honestly think the Calamity started when Regula was killed.

Maybe we HAVE to prevent a ton of crucial events to happen, like Regula's death and maybe even prior events that potentially lead to this calamity (Like the murdering of Ilberd and even trying to "dissuade" Zenos rather than kill him).
I think this also could relate a lot to the "new game+" mode.

Maybe it's there for players to TRULY explore the lore. Maybe "New Game+" will not be optional as it will just mean, the whole expansion happens AFTER calamity (wow's cataclysm) will be the "New Game+" and we will just walk our way, maybe a bit faster, through all of ARR/HW/SB but doing considerably different things and picking up different alternatives to reach different ends. Only, this would just affect the "story" progression and not instanced/character/level/item progression. Maybe we will travel to truly distorded versions of our already explored world. And these new regions are all regions we already know, just deeply altered through ages of calamities or the lack of them.