SE: Please copyright takedown FFLogs.

[lionelbrun]

Yes yes, say I am lazy and everyone else who is Grey parsed but killed the fight is also lazy. Again fflogs is not accurate and has been proven false by full grey groups clearing all current content. I would much rather kill content fast, then worry about parse numbers. As I said, i clear content faster then statics on my server who comb through parse material. I also can find plenty of grey parsed groups clearing all savage content and current ex trials on fflogs its self. The mentality above is the exact reason why fflogs shouldn't exist. Grey parced groups kill content just fine. There is no reason to say they suck when it has been proven time and again that it is doable. Most primal farm parties I have been in has been full grey parsed groups. I farmed Susano 120 times right after he was released. Over 2 days with full grey parsed groups as well as myself. I finally got my dog and moved on. Higher parse numbers are not needed and that statement has been proven time and again.

Also FFlogs does not show you how to Improve save maybe having a dot up longer. The stats on there are inflated by padded/cherry picked numbers and by that issue, makes the numbers require a lot more then is needed for a fight. More over, it does not take into account the entire raiding community. Because it doesn't, there is know way to know what numbers are needed for a fight to succeed and what is overly excessive. What is the average acceptable dps for current content? We don't know, because it doesn't take the entire community into account and only relies on cherry picked/padded numbers.

Anyone doing the average required dps for the fight to succeed is good in my book because that is how SE did it, in house. Anything beyond that is overly excessive and shouldn't be something to worry about. The fights were intended to be cleared with average dps, No healer dps taken into account, and average tank dps. That is how SE made the fights and went out of their way to tell the community that. At the end of the day, its a video game. It is meant to be played for fun, not competitive epeen comparing, which is exactly the mentality that FFlogs promotes, even though its very existence and numbers have been proven false/inaccurate/padded/cherry picked.

The ONLY thing I will agree on is if someone is failing mechanics. That has NOTHING to do with parses but on ones ability to follow the scripted mechanics of the fights. If you fail those, and that causes a wipe, that falls strictly on YOU yourself. Other then that, there is no reason to get on anyone case due to a number, on a website, that is inaccurate.

[HyoMinPark]

The stats on there are inflated by padded/cherry picked numbers and by that issue, makes the numbers require a lot more then is needed for a fight. More over, it does not take into account the entire raiding community. Because it doesn't, there is know way to know what numbers are what is needed to kill a fight. What is the average acceptable dps. We don't know, because it doesn't take the entire community into account.

The higher percentiles can be inflated (97th percentile and higher), but that doesn’t mean that the lower ones are flooded with inflation. And just because the entire raiding community doesn’t upload to the site, doesn’t mean that the data provided cannot be representative and generalized to what DPS amount people should be doing. I think that there’s enough uploaded to the site to make it generalizable to the community. 6,000~7,000 DPS SAM in i390/i400 gear? Probably doing pretty well. 4,000~5,000 DPS SAM in i390/i400 gear? Probably not doing well at all—they either died or there’s some serious rotational issues present.

Padded runs are usually always discarded by any serious raider.

I would much rather kill content fast, then worry about parse numbers.

If your party is full gray, it’s unlikely that you’re clearing the content quickly. Kill time has a lot of influence on damage numbers, which then influences your percentile.

As I said, i clear content faster then statics on my server who comb through parse material.

Do you now? Care to provide proof of your top speedkill?

I'd like to see that. I've experience several "how did we even kill that" enrages, you know, like 1/2 a second before enrage, or even after we all died and dot's kept ticking. Still had people in green/blue/purple.

Same here. Even with parties that have multiple grays, there’s usually always a few people that have greens, blues, and maybe even one with a purple.

[whiskeybravo]

Again fflogs is not accurate and has been proven false by full grey groups clearing all current content.

Yes we know it's not absolutely 100% accurate but respective to one another it is as accurate of a picture as we can get. I don't see how it could be "proven false", fflogs isn't claiming anything that can be falsified. It's simply a repository of battle data.

I would much rather kill content fast, then worry about parse numbers.

Kind of an ironic statement considering that killing faster = better parses in most cases.

I also can find plenty of grey parsed groups clearing all savage content and current ex trials.

Please share at least one actual example before making this claim. I mean, I've seen some pretty sketch logs before, but I don't recall ever seeing a full gray group. And I'm not even sure how you'd manage to find it on the site organically, as in, not one that someone shared with you. Easy to see the top but not so easy to find the bottom from my experience.

Also FFlogs does not show you how to Improve save maybe having a dot up longer.

Not true. We felt a while back that one of healers was holding us back. After looking at logs we saw there were situations where MT wouldn't even get a basic regen until 9mins in to the fight. And we were able to address it. There are other situations where you may ask "what cool down should I use here?" "Should I hold burst for this phase or after?" and you can look at good performances and make adjustments to your own. It can be a helpful tool if you know how to use it.

The stats on there are inflated by padded/cherry picked numbers and by that issue, makes the numbers require a lot more then is needed for a fight.

Yes, if you want to be in the top 5% you have to be padded and cherry pick your logs. But fflogs doesn't just show you the top 5%, it shows you every percentile and where the average players are to achieve that percentile.

More over, it does not take into account the entire raiding community. Because it doesn't, there is know way to know what numbers are what is needed to kill a fight. What is the average acceptable dps. We don't know, because it doesn't take the entire community into account.

Again, mostly false. Not everyone uploads to logs, especially ps4 raiders. But figuring out how much dps is required is simply a matter of boss HP / enrage time. There you go, that's the raid dps required. You don't need to take the entire community in to account to figure that one out. "Acceptable" is also a subjective term. What's acceptable to you or me doesn't have to be acceptable to someone else. Acceptable to me is someone that can at least perform at a similar level to myself, which is fairly reasonable imo. We can't determine that without access to the data though, otherwise you're just making a blind judgement call.

[lionelbrun]

Here is a randomly looked up parse i found for Susano July 1 2017 of a full grey parced group

I simple typed in two letters and clicked on a random toon in the list and managed to find this within 5 minutes. All I know is it is a full group of full greys when he was current and they killed him.

Also yes, acceptable is subjective. If you want to wait and get through content slower because your having to mill over logs thats on you. At the end of the day its a video game. I play to have fun and not worry about logs as their have been numerous grey groups clearing all content fights. Also one green in your group of all greys is not that big of a difference. A green with 100 more dps in a fight is not a carry by any means of the word. Fact is, that parses dont matter when their numbers have been proven to not be accurate on what can and can not clear content. Grey parsed groups have just as good of a shot to kill content as a group full of oranges.

Also I never mentioned killing bosses at a speed kill. I mean getting into a group and being able to kill it every time in the allotted amount of time per fight with no wipes. Ill admit sure, a speed kill group will kill the boss faster sure. However I never noticed the time saved in a speed kill compared to a regular kill. Usually speed runs do not last as long as farm parties in my experience so I dont even bother. As long as every attempt made results in a kill over and over, the party is fine. No matter what makeup, parse, speed, rotation used, healer dps, tank dps, etc. I have been in full grey parsed farm parties for ex trials and got my dog each and every time. My Byakko ex trial farm party took me 30 kills which i ran straight from start to finish in one day with a grey group and me as green. Got my dog on my 30th kill. Save for Shinriyu where I parsed blue instead of the normal green which took me 27 kills in one day to get my dog. My Tsukuyomi kills took 4 to get my dog which me and most parsed grey with one green and one blue in it.

Point being, most groups i have cleared stuff in has been in full grey/green groups. Occasionally a blue in it or a purple but this is far and few between as I only party finder and nothing else to clear content. Yet others want to sit there and belittle others due to their parse number that, in my experience means nothing. My Chaos "farm" group my friend took me in was horrible. I parsed green with a group composed entirely of blue/purple people and my friend who was orange. I did the mechanics much better then most in the group and we didn't even manage to kill the boss. The healers werent healing correctly, the ranged didnt know how to do their squares. Yet the lowest parse person in the group is doing the mechanics without even watching a video or having cleared it before..Ill keep my way of doing things. FFlogs doesn't even need to be around. Ill take a grey that knows the mechanics 100% and plays the fight safe, then an orange who fails due to wanting to "Push higher numbers" and takes too many risks during the fight.

[HarryTipper]

I'm no expert but it does say "Results shown are compared against all public parses uploaded in the last two weeks".
Since people are still running these and uploading for speedkills etc. with all the current gear those numbers are extremely skewed.

I imagine the people in the parse were much closer to green/blue at the time.

Again i'm not entirely sure if that's how it works. Hopefully someone can clarify.

[Transient_Shadow]

In all honesty there's more people who are toxic towards users than the reverse. I literally just posted about how a healer started chewing out a tank over the suspicion of them using one. Like seriously. It takes two to tango and I see more inquisition style players than 'toxic users'

[Jojoya]

Here is a randomly looked up parse i found for Susano July 1 2017 of a full grey parced group

I simple typed in two letters and clicked on a random toon in the list and managed to find this within 5 minutes. All I know is it is a full group of full greys when he was current and they killed him.

Also yes, acceptable is subjective. If you want to wait and get through content slower because your having to mill over logs thats on you. At the end of the day its a video game. I play to have fun and not worry about logs as their have been numerous grey groups clearing all content fights. Also one green in your group of all greys is not that big of a difference. A green with 100 more dps in a fight is not a carry by any means of the word. Fact is, that parses dont matter when their numbers have been proven to not be accurate on what can and can not clear content. Grey parsed groups have just as good of a shot to kill content as a group full of oranges.

Also I never mentioned killing bosses at a speed kill. I mean getting into a group and being able to kill it every time in the allotted amount of time per fight with no wipes. Ill admit sure, a speed kill group will kill the boss faster sure. However I never noticed the time saved in a speed kill compared to a regular kill. Usually speed runs do not last as long as farm parties in my experience so I dont even bother. As long as every attempt made results in a kill over and over, the party is fine. No matter what makeup, parse, speed, rotation used, healer dps, tank dps, etc. I have been in full grey parsed farm parties for ex trials and got my dog each and every time. My Byakko ex trial farm party took me 30 kills which i ran straight from start to finish in one day with a grey group and me as green. Got my dog on my 30th kill. Save for Shinriyu where I parsed blue instead of the normal green which took me 27 kills in one day to get my dog. My Tsukuyomi kills took 4 to get my dog which me and most parsed grey with one green and one blue in it.

What you're trying to gloss over is that it's a parse from 18 months ago when content was new and players had gear with much lower ilvls than they do now.

Of course those parses show as grey now when people have been continuing to clear the content for the last 18 months with increasingly better gear. But if you had looked at that parse back when it was first posted, I'm willing to bet it wasn't a grey at all.

It's got nothing to do with the information being inaccurate and everything to do with it being data from when players didn't have the gear they have now.

[lionelbrun]

I'm no expert but it does say "Results shown are compared against all public parses uploaded in the last two weeks".
Since people are still running these and uploading for speedkills etc. with all the current gear those numbers are extremely skewed.

I imagine the people in the parse were much closer to green/blue at the time.

Again i'm not entirely sure if that's how it works. Hopefully someone can clarify.

I have been told that is how it works, which again means that the numbers are inaccurate/padded/cherry picked and inflates the overall required numbers to a high degree. Which isnt needed to clear a fight, which in turn makes anyone who is parsing grey/green just as capable as an orange cherry picked person.

[lionelbrun]

What you're trying to gloss over is that it's a parse from 18 months ago when content was new and players had gear with much lower ilvls than they do now.

Of course those parses show as grey now when people have been continuing to clear the content for the last 18 months with increasingly better gear. But if you had looked at that parse back when it was first posted, I'm willing to bet it wasn't a grey at all.

It's got nothing to do with the information being inaccurate and everything to do with it being data from when players didn't have the gear they have now.

Hence why it shows history parse and todays parse. History parse was 4% overall, now its a 3%....so your statement is again false. At the time it was a full parse of grey and got down to 3% over 4% when originally posted.

[Vnolan]

You're going to want to remove those links. GMs might be allowing the topic to stay up, but linking to actual numbers won't go well.