BLU as an "Unlimited" Job - Thoughts and Suggestions

[zandervont]

I appreciate your work, but that sounds as boring as other normal Jobs.

much bettter than spamming 1000 needles, or Glower.

[Lambdafish]

much bettter than spamming 1000 needles, or Glower.

Fixing those is a different discussion. That doesn't mean that OPs direction is the correct way to go.

Do you find current BLU to be more interesting than normal jobs? If so, why?

I can give you my opinion on it: I like BLU for what it represents rather than what it is. We all know that BLU is flawed, and over time it will be improved (As most jobs in the game have at some point), but its core identity is exactly what community has been asking for for a long time. My biggest complaint about BLU is that I want more, I don't want BLU in raids, I want Disciples of Collection (I refuse to call them limited jobs) to have their own raiding scene that gives us a different experience that I guess leans slightly more towards how XI works (im not saying I want XI). The masked carnival gives us a taste of strategic use of our skills, introducing new elements to XIV combat such as elemental weaknesses, with these requiring planning and prepping before raid, rather than simply acting and reacting to 'generic' attacks with set skills.

We should get squadrons at the very least, and I have seen arguments for allowing BLU into older roulettes once they have all skills unlocked for that level, but I would never want BLU to be just another job, because we have enough of those already, and will be getting even more. Let BLU expand what the game can be, rather than being warped and changed to fit within the set criteria for what the game currently is.

[Kalise]

I can give you my opinion on it: I like BLU for what it represents rather than what it is. We all know that BLU is flawed, and over time it will be improved (As most jobs in the game have at some point), but its core identity is exactly what community has been asking for for a long time.

What exactly is that core identity?

Playing as BLU, I don't feel it's much different to any other class, other than how it learns skills and of course, the complete and total disregard for having skills feel different and unique what with all of them being just normal spammable skills with no CD's or anything.

Further exacerbated by the fact that many skills are interchangeable because they're all balanced the same doing 120/130 potency to a target/in an area with different "Flavours" that are basically unusable because they're all predicated on having targets afflicted with status ailments that are highly limited in application (Such as Petrify is only from that 1 skill you get from Haukke Manor and is an RNG chance to apply it only to trash mobs)

As I mention in my OP, I suggest these things because it feels to me, that BLU IS very close to "Normal" jobs in comparison.

My biggest complaint about BLU is that I want more, I don't want BLU in raids, I want Disciples of Collection (I refuse to call them limited jobs) to have their own raiding scene that gives us a different experience that I guess leans slightly more towards how XI works (im not saying I want XI).

You don't want BLU in raids you just want... BLU in raids?

Uhh... Okay.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to think of ways to make elements mean something in places outside of the Masked Carnivale, so that for BLU, everywhere will feel like Masked Carnivale. Creating interactions between elements and skills that cause them in a way that will not only feel good to use, but also mean that people will be able to experiment with different skill setups rather than use the 1 skill that does X element damage to the target that's weak to X element. Or their current playstyle where they pick whatever 130 potency attack and spam that for days (Especially given how few people have the full slew of abilities for the rotation, because RNG on Primal skills being learned...)

Let BLU expand what the game can be, rather than being warped and changed to fit within the set criteria for what the game currently is.

Well, letting BLU be a "Normal" job without heavy limitations DOES expand what the game can be. As it means that any job that doesn't fit into exactly the same formula as other jobs in the "Level up, get skills = GG" sense can still be created and can still fit into the majority of content within the game.

Instead of being segregated to side content which would need the devs to divert resources to specifically in order to make sure these few jobs can get continual content while at the same time you KNOW that their primary focus will be with the content accessed by the majority of jobs. All that content is a veritable playground for a job like BLU to be used and to flex their muscles in terms of gaining new skills (Again, the skill set noted in my OP is merely the 1-50 core skills. There's so much more depth that can be added with the 50-70 skills)

Especially given how quick it would be to consume new content. Heck, a majority of the content for BLU already was completed in days for many people, getting to level 50 and learning most spells and completing the Masked Carnivale.

How much time will need to be spent by the Devs to create more content? How long will that content last? A month? A week? A day?

How much time is spent by a normal class experiencing all the content the Devs make for them? All the raids and dungeons, all the MSQ's, all the time in exploratory missions, all the time spend doing DF dailies and Beast Tribe dailies and PvP and tomestone farming and all the other many things that Limited Jobs are prohibited from.

All that extra content locked away from the jobs for what? The possibility that they might make a "Limited Job Raid" where elemental weaknesses matter despite their not being a guarantee that any other limited job other than BLU will even HAVE elemental attacks?

Not to mention, that BLU being able to do normal content, doesn't preclude them from adding in additional Masked Carnivale style content for them to do or these FFXI style "Tactical Raids" that you wish to get. It merely means that the job can have content to play in without ultimately having to drag people away from playing their jobs in content that matters to them in order to carry them through irrelevant dungeons/trials to get their skills...

some of this looks overcomplicated and heavily leaning towards removing the rewards of obtaining spells through personal achievement and effort, which is central to the whole motif of BLU.

Well, this is merely just because as BLU exists at the moment, some of their core spells in order to have a full DPS rotation, are locked behind level 50 EX Trials (The Primal skills) or otherwise need to run through level 50 dungeons/raids in order to obtain (Such as Song of Torment)

Which causes an issue if you ever intend to let people access DF because then they literally wouldn't have access to their core rotation until they've somehow already farmed the content accessed by the DF a ton (Especially with the Primal skills only having a 5% chance to be learned)

For the most part, I want skills to be collectable in the overworld. However, in order to fix what SE screwed up by sticking such important skills into RNG Dungeons and Trials, there has to be a compromise. To which, I feel the best solution is being able to get similar abilities from totems upon reaching a level where DF becomes accessible, but still having the option to go and learn the spells from the Dungeons/Trials at a later date (Much like how people in the single player FF games might complete the game and then go back and learn all the skills for completionist purposes)

Ideally, for all future skills, I would prefer if the ones that would be core for the full DPS rotation (Or can substitute for part of the core DPS rotation) be all learned from enemies in the overworld. Be it random enemies, FATEs or Leves. As that is most fun and more true to the idea of BLU.

It just sucks that SE botched it pretty hard with Song of Torment and the Primal skills...

1. Just remove BLU's restriction from not having access to the DF synced altogether. Level syncing abiltiies in general is /okay/ but I think most spells are fine as is aside from 1000 needles for any content tbh.

Well, it's not just about the fact that certain (1000 Needles) skills are OP at lower levels, but it's also about consistency and the NUMBER of skills available.

People would complain if when they're sync'd to level 15 and running Sastasha they only have 2 skills to spam and are not particularly effective (Outside stat syncing making them deal massive damage compared to an actual level 15 newbie) meanwhile you have BLU running around with 24 skills having full access to all of their level 70 combos.

Again, ideally it wouldn't be so strict that you couldn't for example, go and learn skills from an enemy that's 10 levels higher than you. Just that you're not running around with a ton of available skills in content where everyone else is far more limited. Since, BLU will anyway have more skills available than average due to needing to be able to access a few skills as depending on what skills they've learned and which ones they actually decide to use.

2. Instead of replacing certain abilities with quested copies, thereby removing the need to endeavor to obtain them. Utilize the ability for blu to enter content synced to create a more rewarding and fun way to get them.

Again, the issue is the conflict of interest between certain skills and the ability to actually go do the content.

At level 50, you'll be expected by groups to have Primal skills and Song of Torment as they're key parts to your rotation. But how do you get those skills? You run through level 50 dungeons and trials.

How do you access those dungeons and trials... Well you can't through Duty Finder because most people who advocate for BLU to be able to access DF want it to be restricted until BLU have learned enough skills they perceive to be necessary for them to function. But without DF access to this content, you're at the mercy of forming a party using the PF function, which outside the initial BLU hype is likely not going to be terribly easy to do ESPECIALLY if you have to do it sync'd so you can't even get a friend to carry you through it.

Of course, this is to say nothing about the CONTENT of the quests to unlock these replacement skills, which could actually just pit you against the relevant enemies and let you learn the normal skills (Thus making the need for my suggested replacements unnecessary)

3. Personally I think mighty guard is fine as it is. it's a handy tool for soloing and the idea of having BLU be a "ghetto tank" is appealing in it's own right. If anything I'd like to see BLU be encouraged to take on a tanking spot for some of the less intense content such as dungeons, using CC and mighty guard. We could use more tanks in this type of content, why not let BLU flex into filling that need?

Because, as a Tank main, I'd rather get new tanks that are actually designed to be tanks, rather than try and balance Mighty Guard in a way that allows it to not be a problematic skill. Especially when it comes to trying to get a job into normal content while also trying to balance them for a pseudo-tank role. BLU's don't have Tank job actions, nor do they have access to Tank gear. Giving them a Tank stance and trying to make them also be able to Tank is just adding in a huge balance headache for little gain.

That, and the current iteration of Mighty Guard is an aberration compared to the much beloved skill of the same name found in many previous games in the series.

It would be akin to if Goblin Punch, instead of being a massive damage nuke, became a short duration stun to a single target.

[Lambdafish]

What exactly is that core identity?

The core identity of BLU is collection, as would be the core of all "limited jobs". Beastmaster collects pets (think pokemon in the overworld) and puppetmaster (some sort of crafting mechanic to create mammets?). We aren't talking about combat, we are talking about the primary activity of the job, which is building up a library that can be used.

I have not actually disputed any of your complaints btw, I acknowledge that the actual spells of BLU aren't that interesting, and what the player can do with those spells is limited (I believe that squadrons and roulettes should be something that BLU should gain access to), but the idea of lumping BLU with all other jobs in terms of level cap and access to raids/pvp/deep dungeon does a disservice to the potential that the content has.

You don't want BLU in raids you just want... BLU in raids?

Uhh... Okay.

Reading this makes me dismiss a lot of what you have said, unfortunately, which is a shame because some of your ideas are good and resonate with my own opinions. Please read again what I said about BLU raiding. I don't want BLU to participate in traditional raiding, because the game mechanics there do not suit BLU. What I want is for limited jobs to have their own endgame, or "raid", which is currently the masked carnival (which I love, but also admit has some flaws, such as being exploitable and needing more longevity), where mechanics unique to limited jobs can be implemented, and we can get an endgame far broader than what the cookie cutter raids of normal jobs are able to provide. Once we have a second job, I feel that this idea can be expanded upon a lot more.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to think of ways to make elements mean something in places outside of the Masked Carnivale, so that for BLU, everywhere will feel like Masked Carnivale. Creating interactions between elements and skills that cause them in a way that will not only feel good to use, but also mean that people will be able to experiment with different skill setups rather than use the 1 skill that does X element damage to the target that's weak to X element. Or their current playstyle where they pick whatever 130 potency attack and spam that for days (Especially given how few people have the full slew of abilities for the rotation, because RNG on Primal skills being learned...)

I agree on principle that elemental skills should be expanded, but I am unsure as to how this could be achieved. The masked carnival works because it is a BLU only bubble where the game can work completely differently, whereas the rest of the game is shared between BLU and normal jobs.

Instead of being segregated to side content which would need the devs to divert resources to specifically in order to make sure these few jobs can get continual content while at the same time you KNOW that their primary focus will be with the content accessed by the majority of jobs.

While this is true for the most part, it is just a mentality that you have. You don't know the roadmap that the devs have for limited jobs, and they may be a direct response to the comments that the traditional formula is stale. It may be an attempt to create a parallel experience that provides something completely different. All we know from the devs end is that they said that other limited jobs are being planned, which tells us the scope of their vision. Think of it like crafting and gathering, are they just pieces of side content that the devs have to funnel resources into, or are they parallel experiences to the battle content that some players dedicate their entire game experience to?

Especially given how quick it would be to consume new content. Heck, a majority of the content for BLU already was completed in days for many people, getting to level 50 and learning most spells and completing the Masked Carnivale.

How much time will need to be spent by the Devs to create more content? How long will that content last? A month? A week? A day?

How long do dungeons and raids take to consume? What do you do once you have beaten them once? Again, I have acknowledged that BLU is a bit too limited, and does need some changes to give it more longevity, but that doesn't take away from the idea of a limited job at its core, only that BLU needs some QoL to give it more things to do (such as squadrons and older roulettes). The normal job system has had 6 years of QoL improvements, whereas BLU has had a single (arguably meant for testing the new system) patch. We don't know what the dev has planned for BLU in 5.0, and we don't know what they have planned for limited jobs in general. Maybe you are right and we get absolutely nothing and this is all that the devs planned for limited jobs, but I find it hard to believe that the devs would create an entirely new classification of job and not want to expand on that idea in the near future.

[Kalise]

The core identity of BLU is collection, as would be the core of all "limited jobs". Beastmaster collects pets (think pokemon in the overworld) and puppetmaster (some sort of crafting mechanic to create mammets?). We aren't talking about combat, we are talking about the primary activity of the job, which is building up a library that can be used.

I wanna put emphasis on that last part.

Yes, collecting is a key part of BLU. However, a primary reason FOR collecting is to actually USE the skills.

As such, they need to have content in which to use the skills in.
Content that is relevant and means something for them to use the skills in. Not something like current Masked Carnivale which doesn't need you to collect many of the skills in order to complete it. Not like if BLU was massively OP and could solo everything at level (The novelty would wear off pretty quickly).

but the idea of lumping BLU with all other jobs in terms of level cap and access to raids/pvp/deep dungeon does a disservice to the potential that the content has.

Again, how?

How does BLU being able to participate in normal content suddenly prevent any additional content being made?

Things like your weird "Limited Job Raid"? Which, if you really want to push for it, why don't you make a thread where you discuss how to make it work in a way that wouldn't be absolute garbage because simply having elemental weaknesses will not function because it's likely that Beastmaster and Puppeteer won't have the option to go around collecting various elemental skills.

What stops them from expanding on the Masked Carnivale while BLU is able to do normal content? They'll still be getting new skills as they get new level caps (Or potentially even more frequently, because that's one of the things about BLU is they can get new skills within their existing level cap)

Please, detail exactly the ways in which BLU accessing normal content precludes ANY side content for them existing.

Is PotD not existing because all the main jobs are doing main jobs things and we can't have side content? Does the Gold Saucer not exist and get updates because main jobs are doing main jobs things? Do we not have HoH as an extension of PotD? Do Squadrons not get updated? Do we not get Exploratory Missions and updates to them?

There's plenty of side content that gets added even with the "Standard" raids/dungeons. Why is BLU being part of the "Standard" content suddenly mutually exclusive to side content?

Please read again what I said about BLU raiding. I don't want BLU to participate in traditional raiding, because the game mechanics there do not suit BLU. What I want is for limited jobs to have their own endgame, or "raid", which is currently the masked carnival (which I love, but also admit has some flaws, such as being exploitable and needing more longevity), where mechanics unique to limited jobs can be implemented, and we can get an endgame far broader than what the cookie cutter raids of normal jobs are able to provide. Once we have a second job, I feel that this idea can be expanded upon a lot more.

Again, explain why both cannot happen. Why BLU cannot both be allowed to play in traditional raiding and can have these "Limited Job" raids that are all as quirky as you like?

Not to mention, that BLU can be designed so that traditional raiding isn't so far from their mechanics. Though, I'm curious as to what you believe would be different. I mean, so far, the only thing that seems to be different between current raids and what I've seen about "Weird janky Limited Job Raids" is elemental weakness. But how much would that ACTUALLY impact things? It just means you change what colour skill you spam from a red one to a green one depending on the mob. You know, exactly like Eureka which has elemental weaknesses and you just swap your magia board to the one that counters the current NM boss you're fighting.

Like, at best I can think of maybe a boss like Ultima changing elements as we pull out all the different primals, but even then (Not only have we already beaten Ultima) but the situation just becomes you have to limit your spell choice so you have a fire, wind, water, earth etc spell on your action bar to spam. Hardly game changing mechanics.

I agree on principle that elemental skills should be expanded, but I am unsure as to how this could be achieved. The masked carnival works because it is a BLU only bubble where the game can work completely differently, whereas the rest of the game is shared between BLU and normal jobs.

Currently, BLU has no traits (Other than generic Maim and Mend). There could be traits implemented that further play off using elements, such as giving flat bonuses to certain elements used while an enemy has a particular element debuff on them, which isn't consumed as with the "Combo" skills (So you swap your filler spell depending on what the last element you used after your combo skills)

Not to mention, they COULD in fact, add in elemental weaknesses to enemies if they wished. Put it as the level 50+ job mechanic where they get a little HUD element that shows what element the targeted enemy is attuned to, similar to the Eureka Magia Board. Then, they have elemental weaknesses added in, but only for BLU so that RDM/BLM don't get screwed over by resistances to their main damage spells. Essentially expanding that "Little BLU bubble" across the entire game.

These are only 2 examples that I came up with.

Imagine how many more we could come up with, if instead of arguing about how BLU's mechanics clash with regular content we actually tried to come up with solutions until we find one that the majority of people seem to find satisfactory?

Since that's really getting under my skin at this point, all the people who are against BLU as a job that can access regular content are just trying to attack the very idea of BLU as a "Less Limited Job" rather than try and contribute to discussions of improving the job in ways that make sense for the fantasy and design of a Blue Mage that would not only benefit the class if it became less restricted but would also serve to improve gameplay and design of new content if the class remained heavily restricted.

Think of it like crafting and gathering, are they just pieces of side content that the devs have to funnel resources into, or are they parallel experiences to the battle content that some players dedicate their entire game experience to?

Well, I'd assume they have different teams (Or sub-team) working on Crafting and Battle content. Meanwhile, the suggestion is that there will be a further divide in battle content as both regular and limited jobs would both need battle content churned out.

Which, if they do, then it's also again, possible for BLU to be able to participate in regular content with also having more limited job content too.

How long do dungeons and raids take to consume? What do you do once you have beaten them once?

They last however long it takes to get all the gear from, to farm tomestones from, until you get bored of fighting the same bosses again and again.

Once I've beaten them once, I do them again. Repeatedly. Since they're fun content. I do them in Roulettes. If I had a raid team I'd do raids frequently too, maybe bringing new people through them (As I did back when I was a Raid Leader in WoW)

This is to say nothing of if SE decide to have dungeons part of the Relic Weapons again, which might provide further longevity of the content due to farming to get those shiny glamours.

[Phoenicia]

I appreciate your work, but that sounds as boring as other normal Jobs.

much bettter than spamming 1000 needles, or Glower.

Worth a thousand words? Probably.

[Kaitoo]

>Makes blue unique because its not allowed in currrent content
>People want blue because its unique
>Literarly ignoring that as a proper job it would be more of a turret/buff snooze job then Black

you cant make that shit up

Worth a thousand words? Probably.

accurate

[Factoree]

snip

Why would that have to be the case? None of the current casting jobs really play all that similarly at all in my experience, and I have all of them at 70.
They could make Blue Mage a casting DPS, but give it a bunch of fast-casting short range spells so it has to move around a lot.
They could make it use a heavily proc-based system like Bard where it always has to react to changing conditions.
They could even make Blue Mage into a full-on tank, if they so chose. It certainly has a decent amount of tools for it already, so many of the changes would just be stats.

Also, I think the image you quoted is sarcastic... all those Glowers represent the mechanically ideal way of playing BLU now. Why not make it more interactive and fun to play? The current system is unique in implementation, but the actual combat gameplay gets stale fast.

[Kaitoo]

.

So make Blue Mage something that has nothing to do with how it plays and is potrayed now
roger

[Factoree]

So make Blue Mage something that has nothing to do with how it plays and is potrayed now
roger

They've said they have over 120 spells currently planned. Do you really think that none of them could be adapted or tweaked towards any of those? I already see plenty of short-range area spells (any of the Breath spells for example) and spells that could be useful to tank. Mighty Guard, Sticky Tongue, The Look, Diamondback... the list goes on.