Dev Team, you screwed up.

[Dualgunner]

Then you've missed my point entirely.
I don't really care if they make another caster DPS and call it Blue Mage. But it will still have to function exactly like the rest of them.
Point and shoot - press your buttons in an order. It's not going to be a tank, a healer, an off-tank, an off-healer. It won't provide some mythic utility. It won't be able to replace a healer... it will be its role.
Unless - they fundamentally change the core dynamic of group content. Which, though unlikely, could happen. But I'm thinking it won't.

"Point and shoot, push your buttons in an order." Congrats, BLU as it is right now fits that description. Please acknowledge that the three casters play very differently from each other, despite that they work toward the same goal.

[Ilyrian]

"Point and shoot, push your buttons in an order." Congrats, BLU as it is right now fits that description. Please acknowledge that the three casters play very differently from each other, despite that they work toward the same goal.

What I'm saying is you'll just have another Red Mage with different spell names - where the illusion of melee combat is there but not real.
OR another BLM with different spell names
OR make the DoT based with filler and you've got a SMN with different spell names.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to other types of ranged magical dps playstyles.

Ofc, this isn't necessarily a bad thing - but the range of BLU spells and all their utility and uniqueness would have to be toned down to the point of irrelevancy OR you're in a situation where you have to have a BLU or they are completely useless.

In a game with no true support role - having one would break the system until every class was re engineered to find balance with it. Could be done - but I can't see it.

[Dualgunner]

What I'm saying is you'll just have another Red Mage with different spell names - where the illusion of melee combat is there but not real.
OR another BLM with different spell names
OR make the DoT based with filler and you've got a SMN with different spell names.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to other types of ranged magical dps playstyles.

Just because you can't imagine it doesn't mean there's no possible way. People were saying the same thing about Red Mage before it came out-- "How do we release RDM without it just being BLM again?" Well, they managed it. There's nothing stopping them from doing the same for a Blue Mage.

As far as the number of BLU spells being reduced--yes, a DFable BLU probably would have their total spells reduced. I'm also given to understand that XIV as it is right now is up there with total BLU spells anyway.

[Ilyrian]

Just because you can't imagine it doesn't mean there's no possible way.

That's kind of an invitation for you to offer your ideas of how this can be achieved - if any. Conversation and all.

People were saying the same thing about Red Mage before it came out-- "How do we release RDM without it just being BLM again?" Well, they managed it. There's nothing stopping them from doing the same for a Blue Mage.

There's been a pretty noticeable backlash against RDM being a generic caster clone.

It looks nice and it's flashy but it's hardly the caster-melee-healer hybrid many imagined.

Edit: This whole conversation is basically moot as the people that are complaining about the BLU we have now will complain about the BLU we get if they decide to bring it in line with the other classes.
Such is the nature of things.

[Kabooa]

That's kind of an invitation for you to offer your ideas of how this can be achieved - if any. Conversation and all.

Bluece's wild, I already wrote it.

[Flana]

Then you've missed my point entirely.
I don't really care if they make another caster DPS and call it Blue Mage. But it will still have to function exactly like the rest of them.
Point and shoot - press your buttons in an order. It's not going to be a tank, a healer, an off-tank, an off-healer. It won't provide some mythic utility. It won't be able to replace a healer... it will be its role.
Unless - they fundamentally change the core dynamic of group content. Which, though unlikely, could happen. But I'm thinking it won't.

Red Mage plays nothing like Black Mage. Neither of them play anything like Summoner. Do you really think that in the entire history of MMOs there are only three total playstyles and now that we have these casters, that's it. The role is permenantly finished, there is absolutely no new ground to tread?

Point and shoot - press your buttons in an order.

We both know this is absolute nonsense. First, every job in every game can be distilled to the "you just push buttons and win" level. Even everyone's darling of a game XI can be. "You just push your buttons in order, XI has no unique gameplay." Skillchains are just pushing buttons in order. Killing an enemy is just pushing your buttons in order. Literally any game ever is just pushing your buttons in order.

Second, this is literally how Blue Mage already works in this game. There is an objective best rotation that will be found for BLU doing anything that isn't memeing the carnival with 5 buffs + Self Destruct because that is what XIV's combat is based on. If this is an honest criteria for you, then BLU has spectacularly failed the instant it released.

Even inside the carnival, there will be a most efficient combo to clear the stage. You are still 'just pushing buttons in order', no matter what you do and no matter what content you are in, unless you are the BLU equivalent of an Ice Mage and just want to faceroll random abilities because "it's fun."

So is this BLU already a failure? Because there is a rotation that exists? If so then why wouldn't you want to see another rework already? You're just pushing buttons in order like every other mage, that's a fact.

It's not going to be a tank, a healer, an off-tank, an off-healer. It won't provide some mythic utility. It won't be able to replace a healer... it will be its role.

Blue Mage is not a tank. It has none of the tools to efficiently respond to actions that require it except for Fish Vomit which is an instant silence. The only snap aggro tool is White Wind because of the ridiculous amount of enmity it generates. No Blue Mage will ever compete with Dark Knight, Warrior, or Paladin because those jobs are built to manage enemies and survive at the same time. What is a BLU going to do in comparison, throw out a few White Winds and then spam Diamondback?

If the only criteria to be a tank here is 'to hold aggro' then why are you using Summoner as an example of a generic mage? Titan-egi lacks the majority of quick response tools that Blue Mage lacks (although Titan-egi has an instant stun instead of Silence), and has a permanent threat increase across his entire kit. Not only is he more tanky than a regular player because of a pets natural resistance to AoE, he has incredible threat gen with Enkindle and is very resilient because the Summoner can apply a %max hp heal over time to him. Throw in a healer who can target the dude and he can tank anything Blue Mage can. Is Summoner a tank?

Blue Mage is not a healer. White Wind is hilarious but utterly crippled by it's design of only reflecting the amount of HP you currently have. You will never bring a Blue Mage over a White Mage, Astrologian, or Scholar because a Blue Mage's heal immediately becomes useless once they are targeted by a spell. You can only double your HP with every cast. Imagine trying to heal any Charybdis mechanic as a Blue Mage. You also can not adjust to the situation at hand. White Wind is a hard cast that heals in a massive area. Even if one person is hurt, you have no tools to assist them. Heal everyone or no one. In addition to that the lack of ogcd healing means BLU is forced to break combos and completely disengage with the target just to heal anything, not a restraint any other healer has.

If the only criteria here is 'can restore hp' then why are you using Red Mage as an example of some generic caster? Vercure is extraordinarily potent as a healing tool and has no active requirement. The power of Vercure is static and easy to plan around when compared to White Wind. It's even faster to cast, and thanks to the Dualcast trait, can become instant. An instant Vercure also means the Red Mage never needs to fully disengage from his or her target, thanks to ogcd abilities that fit nicely in the opening. And, lest we forget, Red Mage has Verraise, which is extraordinarily useful at virtually any point once you get it.

Blue Mage is not an off-tank. Being a caster naturally inhibits the ability to interact with the tank in any meaningful way because you can neither Provoke or Shirk. The only way you can tank swap would be to permanently sit in tank stance and ride the tank in aggro, forcing the entire work-load onto them should they need to swap and completely destroying your damage. The only way you can reliably shift aggro off yourself during a tank swap is to completely obliterate your aggro by Lucid Dreaming. Even if we're talking about "main tank dies, maybe blu can save the day" you still have to fully cast Mighty Guard and then fully cast another ability and hope that is enough to put you at the top of the aggro meter and that whatever you are fighting hasn't gone berserk on the healers yet. If we're talking about "an add showed up, OT grab it" then Summoner is still far more effective with Titan-egi unless the boss summoned a lot of adds all over the place. Like, MANY WHELPS HANDLE IT numbers of adds.

The only thing a Blue Mage might possibly be able to replace is an off-healer, but that still comes with it's own problems. White Wind is still dependent on your HP which means mass raid damage severely inhibits the Blue Mage's ability to heal, forcing the entire effort onto the other healer. They are also forced to not only babysit the BLU since White Wind is only broken OP at high health levels, their mp is at a constant threat because BLU still can't raise anyone. There is still an unnecessary degree of clunk and micro-management to even get this to work and it entirely hinges on White Wind being a hilariously broken when the BLU is at full health as opposed to complete garbage when the BLU is near death.


If you're going to counter with "well 8 BLU groups can do X", don't. We've already seen full Red Mage, Summoner, and tank or healer only runs of 24 mans and even relevant 8 man content in the past. Is Red Mage now a tank because you can do raids with only Red Mages? Is Paladin now a healer because even back in heavensward they could gang up with Warriors and bully extreme and Savage fights? This kind of cross-trinity action has been happening for years and Blue Mage has not suddenly brought it to the table. It only added one new way to be thrown on top of the pile.

Unless - they fundamentally change the core dynamic of group content. Which, though unlikely, could happen. But I'm thinking it won't.

So, let me ask again, why do you think BLU would suddenly be stripped of every last toy when Summoner has had the same capacity to tank since it launched? Why would that be a thing when Red Mage has had incredibly potent healing and raising abilities since it was released? If Summoner and Red Mage are supposedly so generic that every mage afterwards would just be a clone, doesn't that already just make BLU a rehashed clone of the dps we already had? If mixing some stuff up is enough to make it fresh and new, then why wouldn't that work in the other way to make something new such as BLM's cadence crossed with RDM's fluidity? Or Summoner's micromanagement? Why is BLU suddenly the only job that requires a total overhaul of the game when we can plainly see it works right now?

And most importantly, why are Summoner and Red Mage being maligned as generic and the same when they clearly aren't? They have their own strengths and weaknesses. They found a place in the game to function. If this is the criteria for BLU to be truly unique and special, then it has failed on every account.

[Blueyes]

(...)

I must say, I greatly appreciate everything you've written here. Thank you.

[wereotter]

Blue Mage is not a tank. It has none of the tools to efficiently respond to actions that require it except for Fish Vomit which is an instant silence. The only snap aggro tool is White Wind because of the ridiculous amount of enmity it generates. No Blue Mage will ever compete with Dark Knight, Warrior, or Paladin because those jobs are built to manage enemies and survive at the same time. What is a BLU going to do in comparison, throw out a few White Winds and then spam Diamondback?

If the only criteria to be a tank here is 'to hold aggro' then why are you using Summoner as an example of a generic mage? Titan-egi lacks the majority of quick response tools that Blue Mage lacks (although Titan-egi has an instant stun instead of Silence), and has a permanent threat increase across his entire kit. Not only is he more tanky than a regular player because of a pets natural resistance to AoE, he has incredible threat gen with Enkindle and is very resilient because the Summoner can apply a %max hp heal over time to him. Throw in a healer who can target the dude and he can tank anything Blue Mage can. Is Summoner a tank?

Not implying BLU can or should be a tank, but I'd be remiss if I didn't point out Mighty Guard adds emnity to every skill the Blue Mage uses while reducing damage taken. I've seen Blue Mages paired up with level 70 tanks where the tank struggles to hold agro against the level 50 blue mage. Additionally Blue Mage has The Look which is an exact replica of Overpower, meaning that the only real pieces Blue Mage is lacking to be a tank are defensive cooldowns, and the ability to wear tank armor to increase defense.

Again, I don't think the job should be a tank, but if sometime in the future they decided to turn it into one, a couple of the keep pieces already exist for it to fit into that role.

[Ilyrian]

So, let me ask again, why do you think BLU would suddenly be stripped of every last toy when Summoner has had the same capacity to tank since it launched? Why would that be a thing when Red Mage has had incredibly potent healing and raising abilities since it was released? If Summoner and Red Mage are supposedly so generic that every mage afterwards would just be a clone, doesn't that already just make BLU a rehashed clone of the dps we already had? If mixing some stuff up is enough to make it fresh and new, then why wouldn't that work in the other way to make something new such as BLM's cadence crossed with RDM's fluidity? Or Summoner's micromanagement? Why is BLU suddenly the only job that requires a total overhaul of the game when we can plainly see it works right now?

Explain to me in which content a Summoner is tanking in place of a tank and a Red Mage is the healer.

[Dualgunner]

That's kind of an invitation for you to offer your ideas of how this can be achieved - if any. Conversation and all.

That you have to ask this of me means you didn't read my post from last page, and frankly I'm a bit saddened by that. I put about thirty minutes spitballing three or four different ways Mighty Guard could be handled with White Wind as a paired mechanic to it.

Regardless, whether or not I personally can come up with ideas does not negate what I've said at all. People doubted RDM's ability to be in the game. Nobody could imagine how so everybody concluded it was impossible. Then Yoshida's team put in a (from everywhere I've seen, apparently we live in different circles) very well received take on the Red Mage.

There's been a pretty noticeable backlash against RDM being a generic caster clone.

It looks nice and it's flashy but it's hardly the caster-melee-healer hybrid many imagined.

Generic caster clone?

It focused on RDM's iconic dualcasting mechanics and added in a focus on balancing two meters against each other and a burst phase that mandates melee range. That's something neither other caster can or has to do, so "generic caster clone"? Really? I expect words like that to come from people who don't actually play this game's casters.

Edit: This whole conversation is basically moot as the people that are complaining about the BLU we have now will complain about the BLU we get if they decide to bring it in line with the other classes.
Such is the nature of things.

I have more fun discussing this than I do playing watercannonmag--I mean needlemag--I mean drillcannon mage.