4.5 WHM

[Songwillow]

I have never gotten the flow for AST to get max efficiency for progression. I seem to do well with SCH though. So from what I'm understanding, WHM is best for REALLY early game and are great for level, SCH is great for leveling and can hold their own well in progression, and AST is the god of healing progression but suck for leveling due to the good actions being late game.

I have all the healers at 70 so I should play around with each at equal powered gear and such to play with the overall power of their abilities. Mostly just to experiment. I feel the most comfortable with SCH and I used to love WHM back in HW, but AST was one that I always struggled with since I find the card system is so annoying to deal with personally due to RNG being aggrevating and it never giving me what I need.

[tinythinker]

I'm gonna be blunt here. No one cares about content outside end game.

That's all I do. If that makes me no one, so be it. Yet I do hope there is a dps increase or something like that for end-gamers. It's good when everyone can enjoy a job they like at the level of engagement and difficulty they find satisfying and rewarding. The content that matters is the content someone enjoys, so I hope the progression people will be able to enjoy WHM in 5.0.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

That's all I do. If that makes me no one, so be it. Yet I do hope there is a dps increase or something like that for end-gamers. It's good when everyone can enjoy a job they like at the level of engagement and difficulty they find satisfying and rewarding. The content that matters is the content someone enjoys, so I hope the progression people will be able to enjoy WHM in 5.0.

Context matters. Progression content refers to Savage and Ultimate because those fights typically require some degree of strategy. Everything else can be simply brute forced through so long as someone has a raise. Hence why pre-70 "progression" just doesn't matter. When we're talking about job balance, it's in regards to Savage as that's when jobs are tested.

[tinythinker]

Context matters. Progression content refers to Savage and Ultimate because those fights typically require some degree of strategy. Everything else can be simply brute forced through so long as someone has a raise. Hence why pre-70 "progression" just doesn't matter. When we're talking about job balance, it's in regards to Savage as that's when jobs are tested.

Not arguing about that. I even wrote that I hope WHM is something prog folks will be able to enjoy in 5.0. I simply wanted to identify myself as a lowly DF pugger before wishing for the best for all WHM players. Not to be decisive, but because we all have a stake in how this turns out.

Yet, as others have noted many times in this thread, SE seems to want to keep WHM a certain way because of how it plays in non-prog. So, if SE is heavily looking at the bulk of people who just do DF roulettes to get through the MSQ, it will affect their decision-making, which could lead to things getting tacked on secondarily to address prog stuff (like lilies and confessions). So what is the context SE is looking at first, second, and third? We can't be sure, but it matters in terms of how they will approach balance in 5.0.

NOTE --> I'm not endorsing or hyping the position that df roulette matters more than prog for class design

EXTRA NOTE --> Please see just above so it isn't missed

I do hope that WHM gets something for sav, ex, and ult content, whether it is cast-time reduction boosts, damage boosts, or a bigger rework that adds something new to the job.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Not arguing about that. I even wrote that I hope WHM is something prog folks will be able to enjoy in 5.0. I simply wanted to identify myself as a lowly DF pugger before wishing for the best for all WHM players. Not to be decisive, but because we all have a stake in how this turns out.

Yet, as others have noted many times in this thread, SE seems to want to keep WHM a certain way because of how it plays in non-prog. So, if SE is heavily looking at the bulk of people who just do DF roulettes to get through the MSQ, it will affect their decision-making, which could lead to things getting tacked on secondarily to address prog stuff (like lilies and confessions). So what is the context SE is looking at first, second, and third? We can't be sure, but it matters in terms of how they will approach balance in 5.0.

NOTE --> I'm not endorsing or hyping the position that df roulette matters more than prog for class design

EXTRA NOTE --> Please see just above so it isn't missed

I do hope that WHM gets something for sav, ex, and ult content, whether it is cast-time reduction boosts, damage boosts, or a bigger rework that adds something new to the job.

I don't disagree. Sadly, it's that precise mindset has kept WHM languishing in mediocrity for such a long time now. The devs keep focusing on casual content when it comes to balancing only to seem utterly baffled when it fails at the higher levels. With that being said, I don't have an issue with being an entry level healer with a simplistic design. It's the fact there is zero optimization avenues for more experienced players to play around with outside of just being better. Hopefully, that changes come ShB but I can't say I am overly confident.

[tinythinker]

I don't disagree. Sadly, it's that precise mindset has kept WHM languishing in mediocrity for such a long time now. The devs keep focusing on casual content when it comes to balancing only to seem utterly baffled when it fails at the higher levels. With that being said, I don't have an issue with being an entry level healer with a simplistic design. It's the fact there is zero optimization avenues for more experienced players to play around with outside of just being better. Hopefully, that changes come ShB but I can't say I am overly confident.

I've written about some of this in comments in other threads, but sometimes people latch onto a part where I talk about why WHM is good/fun for the DF pug healer (which I identify as) and once in a while I get indigant replies that seem like displaced of anger meant for SE. But to summarize my thinking:

1. SE knows tons of players don't go beyond DF roulettes for combat, with another bunch that only goes a bit above that to do new 24-player stuff for coins and maybe the occasional EX party to get a drop.

2. SE knows WHM is *amazing* for new healers, returning healers, casual healers, healers who pug DF roulettes a lot (see Tale from the Duty Finder for loads of examples of the challenges in DF for anyone that needs reminding)

3. SE knows #2 is true largely because of how its toolkit is built and because it is so intuitive to play with lots of built-in redundancies and mistake-reversing options

4. SE has made QoL soooooo much better for people in #2 with the 4.x changes, suggesting this a priority for them with WHM

5. SE knows people can and do clear all content, even end-game, with WHM and that there is *always* some drama about "meta"

6. SE knows even a small change can disrupt balance and by keeping WHM so straightforward it would be easy to over-power WHM

7. With #2/3 and #5/6 in mind, they still could have given some cool-down or cast-time reductions and/or some damage potency boosts for the initial 4.5 patch, yet they didn't, so they either do not see the same need or urgency as many on the forums do for a competitive boost at end-game for WHM or they are just focusing on the restructuring for 5.0

8. I agree that cast-time/cool-down changes and damage potency changes would be a great way to help WHM for optimizers and end-game people (I think my words were something like "give WHM back its dps crown with no pretenders to the throne") while still keeping the job simple and easy

9. I've tossed out a few ideas for making the job a *little* more complex using things like a revamped lily system (add them earlier, have a button or three that "spend lilies" on different buffs while also having another bonus or buff for *not* spending them to make it a choice, focus on the WHM elemental theme and have a fluid aura 2 that is AoE slow and debuffs enemies to water/wind damage, etc.)

10. SE will never satisfy everyone with whatever happens to WHM in 5.0 but I wish the best in the new expansion for all who play the job in whatever capacity or type of content

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

I have no doubt SE is quite happy with WHM. The issue is their vision directly contradicts how we play healers at higher levels of play. A healer aspiring to be better will be told to limit their GCD use as much as possible, which is the antithesis of WHM's current design. Unfortunately, this stubbornness only harms people who may have Savage aspirations. Why? It's likely quite discouraging to hear how much your preferred job is shunned by the raid scene. Of course, people will tell you everyone can clear and you'll find parties—both entirely true statements. But the stigma only adds an obstacle that needn't be there in the first place.

[manamoppet]

I like the increased confession time, making PI easier to use. Would be nice if they added a shield trait to it as well, converting e.g. over-heal to shields. There are situations now where we have (nearly) full stacks of confession, while the party have full or close to full health when burst damage is expected. Mitigating the damage ahead of time would be useful.

[NobleWinter]

I like the increased confession time, making PI easier to use. Would be nice if they added a shield trait to it as well, converting e.g. over-heal to shields. There are situations now where we have (nearly) full stacks of confession, while the party have full or close to full health when burst damage is expected. Mitigating the damage ahead of time would be useful.

I was hoping that confessions would undergo a change that involved enmity reduction. Something to the effect of: healing any Target with 1 confession stack will create 50% less enmity. 75% less with 2 confessions. 100% less with three. This would make solo healing after a cohealer dies possible without ripping agro from a tank. Skilled players could use Plenary as an additional heal and less skilled players could choose to avoid it as a means to manage agro from over healing. As a pure healer you should be able to heal purely without any worries and reworking confession stacks to mitigate enmity completely would really fit the dynamic of the White Mage. It's not like over healing would help kill anything except now it helps you kill yourself.

[manamoppet]

I was hoping that confessions would undergo a change that involved enmity reduction. Something to the effect of: healing any Target with 1 confession stack will create 50% less enmity. 75% less with 2 confessions. 100% less with three. This would make solo healing after a cohealer dies possible without ripping agro from a tank. Skilled players could use Plenary as an additional heal and less skilled players could choose to avoid it as a means to manage agro from over healing. As a pure healer you should be able to heal purely without any worries and reworking confession stacks to mitigate enmity completely would really fit the dynamic of the White Mage. It's not like over healing would help kill anything except now it helps you kill yourself.

Good points

Just to clear up any potential misunderstanding, I meant PI should give the shields by converting potentially unused healing to those shields (no over-heal when using it - no shield), what with all the unavoidable damage the recent bosses give, not that one should over-heal. Personally, Lucid Dreaming is most often enough to manage aggro the few times something happens.