4.5 WHM

[HyoMinPark]

Yeah WHM will always be unbalanced in a farm setting (less during progression) as long as they stick to the pure healer thing (which they have for the past what? 4 years now?). It's not that bad really, I haven't seen any lockouts in recent memory. But, regardless, right now the more important fact is that WHM is just outright clunky. It has no flow, clipping galore, instant GCDs that you can't fill, useless traits and gauge. That's what needs focus and is 5.0 material.

Just addressing the bolded part: the sad thing is, is that AST has taken over WHM as the prog healer. Especially in this tier where ASTs can pop Lightspeed during periods of heavy movement (e.g., o12s) and heal the party (or use Star), where as WHM struggles with any healing if movement involves. Meanwhile, all WHM had for heavy healing really was Cure III, which is less useful during things like Hello World because the party spends the majority of the time not being stacked up for it. ASTs struggle a tad more with MP compared to WHM, but they have tools at their disposal that WHM simply does not. Upload-wise, AST is dominating WHM in Savage.


The Assize change will give a bit more DPS. But between the clipping WHMs have when trying to weave in oGCDs like Assize, Tetra, Bene, or Divine Bension and early clipping of Aero II just to have an opportunity to weave, I don’t know how much they actually gained in the long run. Everyone saw what happened to AST when they reduced the cast time of Malefic III to 1.5s, and how their damage just shot up because they were no longer clipping their GCD every time they had to do card things.

Honestly, I think they should have given WHM the AST treatment of 1.5s cast times on Stone IV—to allow its personal DPS to increase and deal higher damage (for a healer) to offset the fact that it doesn’t have any answer to Balance. But, it somewhat doesn’t surprise me that they didn’t even do that.
And, sadly, it still may not have been enough. But I think it would have been better than the Assize change. Because now you’ll be clipping either your GCD or your Aero II DoT early every 45secs as opposed to 60secs.

[Gemina]

Just addressing the bolded part: the sad thing is, is that AST has taken over WHM as the prog healer. Especially in this tier where ASTs can pop Lightspeed during periods of heavy movement (e.g., o12s)

Quick question. Why would you mention that AST has taken over as the progression healer, and then use an endgame savage raid as an example? And AST can pop LS as soon as it is available to them for heavy movement. LS gives AST the potential to cheese mechanics, and actually probably needs to be on a much longer CD. It's OP right now.

AST honestly sucks for progression pre-60. How often are you taking AST over SCH or WHM outside expert roulettes? I'm guessing not at all, because one weakness this job has, is how insufferable it is outside of max level once you get there. This actually makes it the worst out of the three healers for progressive content. Of course, you can correct me if I am wrong.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Quick question. Why would you mention that AST has taken over as the progression healer, and then use an endgame savage raid as an example? And AST can pop LS as soon as it is available to them for heavy movement. LS gives AST the potential to cheese mechanics, and actually probably needs to be on a much longer CD. It's OP right now.

AST honestly sucks for progression pre-60. How often are you taking AST over SCH or WHM outside expert roulettes? I'm guessing not at all, because one weakness this job has, is how insufferable it is outside of max level once you get there. This actually makes it the worst out of the three healers for progressive content. Of course, you can correct me if I am wrong.

I'm gonna be blunt here. No one cares about content outside end game. When we're talking about prog, we're specifically referring to Savage—EX Primals to a much lesser extent. White Mage does fine in dungeons, but when you can run through dungeons with three DPS and a tank, it's not exactly a setting people focus on.

Basically, you've said White Mage is good for the leveling process. Which is precisely the issue. Once you enter content that matters, Astro is hilariously superior in virtually every way.

[tinythinker]

I'm gonna be blunt here. No one cares about content outside end game.

That's all I do. If that makes me no one, so be it. Yet I do hope there is a dps increase or something like that for end-gamers. It's good when everyone can enjoy a job they like at the level of engagement and difficulty they find satisfying and rewarding. The content that matters is the content someone enjoys, so I hope the progression people will be able to enjoy WHM in 5.0.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

That's all I do. If that makes me no one, so be it. Yet I do hope there is a dps increase or something like that for end-gamers. It's good when everyone can enjoy a job they like at the level of engagement and difficulty they find satisfying and rewarding. The content that matters is the content someone enjoys, so I hope the progression people will be able to enjoy WHM in 5.0.

Context matters. Progression content refers to Savage and Ultimate because those fights typically require some degree of strategy. Everything else can be simply brute forced through so long as someone has a raise. Hence why pre-70 "progression" just doesn't matter. When we're talking about job balance, it's in regards to Savage as that's when jobs are tested.

[tinythinker]

Context matters. Progression content refers to Savage and Ultimate because those fights typically require some degree of strategy. Everything else can be simply brute forced through so long as someone has a raise. Hence why pre-70 "progression" just doesn't matter. When we're talking about job balance, it's in regards to Savage as that's when jobs are tested.

Not arguing about that. I even wrote that I hope WHM is something prog folks will be able to enjoy in 5.0. I simply wanted to identify myself as a lowly DF pugger before wishing for the best for all WHM players. Not to be decisive, but because we all have a stake in how this turns out.

Yet, as others have noted many times in this thread, SE seems to want to keep WHM a certain way because of how it plays in non-prog. So, if SE is heavily looking at the bulk of people who just do DF roulettes to get through the MSQ, it will affect their decision-making, which could lead to things getting tacked on secondarily to address prog stuff (like lilies and confessions). So what is the context SE is looking at first, second, and third? We can't be sure, but it matters in terms of how they will approach balance in 5.0.

NOTE --> I'm not endorsing or hyping the position that df roulette matters more than prog for class design

EXTRA NOTE --> Please see just above so it isn't missed

I do hope that WHM gets something for sav, ex, and ult content, whether it is cast-time reduction boosts, damage boosts, or a bigger rework that adds something new to the job.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Not arguing about that. I even wrote that I hope WHM is something prog folks will be able to enjoy in 5.0. I simply wanted to identify myself as a lowly DF pugger before wishing for the best for all WHM players. Not to be decisive, but because we all have a stake in how this turns out.

Yet, as others have noted many times in this thread, SE seems to want to keep WHM a certain way because of how it plays in non-prog. So, if SE is heavily looking at the bulk of people who just do DF roulettes to get through the MSQ, it will affect their decision-making, which could lead to things getting tacked on secondarily to address prog stuff (like lilies and confessions). So what is the context SE is looking at first, second, and third? We can't be sure, but it matters in terms of how they will approach balance in 5.0.

NOTE --> I'm not endorsing or hyping the position that df roulette matters more than prog for class design

EXTRA NOTE --> Please see just above so it isn't missed

I do hope that WHM gets something for sav, ex, and ult content, whether it is cast-time reduction boosts, damage boosts, or a bigger rework that adds something new to the job.

I don't disagree. Sadly, it's that precise mindset has kept WHM languishing in mediocrity for such a long time now. The devs keep focusing on casual content when it comes to balancing only to seem utterly baffled when it fails at the higher levels. With that being said, I don't have an issue with being an entry level healer with a simplistic design. It's the fact there is zero optimization avenues for more experienced players to play around with outside of just being better. Hopefully, that changes come ShB but I can't say I am overly confident.

[HyoMinPark]

Quick question. Why would you mention that AST has taken over as the progression healer, and then use an endgame savage raid as an example?

Because the premise was “farm setting” versus “progression”—which is in reference to Savage raiding (and, to a lesser extent, EX primals). Not leveling progression.

And AST can pop LS as soon as it is available to them for heavy movement.

Which is what I said? Did you read my post? Did you read what I was responding to?

AST honestly sucks for progression pre-60. How often are you taking AST over SCH or WHM outside expert roulettes?

No one here is talking about Expert Roulette. No one here is talking about leveling progression. The premise is, again, a farm setting over progression—which is in reference to high-endgame content. Even the overall tone in this thread has been discussing WHM versus AST/SCH in end-game settings. Not pre-70 settings. Unless EaMett was talking about leveling progression (which I doubt since they mentioned “farm setting”), what you’re saying here about AST sucking for pre-60 progression is irrelevant. No one cares about “progression” in roulettes.

AST is the chosen healer for savage raids. It has always been the chosen healer for speedkills and optimization, and has taken over WHM as a progression healer this tier.

I'm guessing not at all, because one weakness this job has, is how insufferable it is outside of max level once you get there. This actually makes it the worst out of the three healers for progressive content. Of course, you can correct me if I am wrong.

For the third time: ”Progression” isn’t being used to refer to leveling.

Honestly, AST at 60 is not much different than it is at 70 — it lacks Earthly Star, Sleeve Draw, and Minor Arcana, but it functions virtually the same from 60 to 70. It’s only “insufferable” when you get synced down to pre-52 and cannot use Gravity. But we’re arguing opinions here.

[Yuyuka3]

Quick question. Why would you mention that AST has taken over as the progression healer, and then use an endgame savage raid as an example? And AST can pop LS as soon as it is available to them for heavy movement. LS gives AST the potential to cheese mechanics, and actually probably needs to be on a much longer CD. It's OP right now.

AST honestly sucks for progression pre-60. How often are you taking AST over SCH or WHM outside expert roulettes? I'm guessing not at all, because one weakness this job has, is how insufferable it is outside of max level once you get there. This actually makes it the worst out of the three healers for progressive content. Of course, you can correct me if I am wrong.

Because endgame is the only part in the entire game where balance even matters! I don't get why that's so hard to understand. It's not rocket science. Also, "progression pre-60" made me laugh, but not in the good way. There is no progression pre-60. Wtf kind of raid do you want to progress pre-60? And why even mention roulette, which a trained ape could run? Laughable...

You even acknowledged that AST is op in endgame content, and answered your own question of why it was mentioned as a progression healer. Sorry, but that is a very badly thought-through post right there.

[Songwillow]

I have never gotten the flow for AST to get max efficiency for progression. I seem to do well with SCH though. So from what I'm understanding, WHM is best for REALLY early game and are great for level, SCH is great for leveling and can hold their own well in progression, and AST is the god of healing progression but suck for leveling due to the good actions being late game.

I have all the healers at 70 so I should play around with each at equal powered gear and such to play with the overall power of their abilities. Mostly just to experiment. I feel the most comfortable with SCH and I used to love WHM back in HW, but AST was one that I always struggled with since I find the card system is so annoying to deal with personally due to RNG being aggrevating and it never giving me what I need.