What exactly IS a White Mage?

[tinythinker]

So just because it's fine elsewhere means the job needs to be hamstrung in raids forever? Sorry, I call bulls. I've met ASTs in experts who never used cards on my PLD (which is a pretty good example of an easy, accessible job that is quite sought after because, you know, it actually got shit none other can do while still being easy enough to learn so even noobs can play it decently enough), and SCHs who barely seem to be aware that you can and should micro-manage your fairy. We still cleared, because know what? Balance means jack shit in anything outside of raids, so saying "WHM is fine because it's usable anywhere except raids" is just plain idiotic and if I see this sorry excuse for an argument only one more time I'm going to throw up. The fact that you seem to be one of very few thinking so should also be a pretty good clue that maybe there really is something wrong here. Not saying the group is always right, but if several players who played the job since 2.0 (or longer) tell you there is something wrong, even switched to other jobs for raids because it's easier to get groups that way/it doesn't feel like being a freaking burden, you might want to listen to those people.

Even in the part you snipped, I mentioned SE having fertile ground for making the job more worthwhile for people at end-game. That comment is clear I am not saying the job feels OK for everyone, and other comments I made in this thread go into that in more detail.

Vomit as you will.

Or, hold on, here was the (joke) comment I was responding to:

It's been dying since early Heavensward. Let's just put an end to it.
Make it a Disciple of Land, and use elemental magic to make plants grow faster or whatever and take it off the raid-scene.

I was responding to this particular perspective, which, while not serious in this case, some people have skated towards in their frustration.

*shrug*

As for those other comments I made in this thread, in them I expand on the comment you quoted and say that:

1. WHM as-is (great for non-prog/DF roulettes, easy to learn/re-learn, simple, etc.) appears to be a strength in SE's eyes.

2. It makes sense that SE would hesitate to mess with the identity or function of WHM if they see those things as strengths for a certain part of the player-base.

3. I get why that can be frustrating to those who want to stand out or be more competitive at end-game.

4. I offer my own ideas on how to try to balance #1/2 and #3. Not the best ideas by a long-shot. But I take the different desires and concerns seriously. It ranges from what many ask for (buff the heck out of WHM damage) to adding a *little* bit of complexity to the job via better use of lilies.


- - - - - -


The other comments, for whatever they are worth. These are short-excerpts of longer material from three larger comments but the arrow at the top goes back to the full text of each:

Longer comment numero uno...

I get it. I've said something similar: WHM is much easier to get into/more accessible. No managing cards or aetherflow or pets. That's "what it is". Unadorned and straightforward.

That's also why the lily gauge feels so tacked on by appearing so far into leveling. There *is no* WHM minigame to manage that relies on some special resource (aetherflow, pets, cards). SE seems to acknowledge that this is "what white mage is" by making lilies nice but optional and ignorable, especially for non-raiders. That keeps the "plain, simple, powerful" theme intact. Confession stacks don't even get a gauge, and outside of less forgiving content they are also nice but easily ignorable...

Longer comment dos...

Yes, as I described a little ealier, it seems SE wants to keep WHM simple and easy to access even at cap, hence lilies and confession stacks added late in the leveling process that are ignorable (confession doesn't even get a gauge). In adding those late extras to WHM they appear to want to avoid introducing much complexity while adding a little something extra for prog players/optimizers. People who only do non-prog content and/or play infrequently/casually can use WHM as easy-to-get-(back)-into job for healing, while the other healing jobs offer more complexity and management of resources. I have dropped in and out of the game a lot over the past 2 1/2 year, and can say that WHM being so basic and easy to use has really helped me jump back in and given me a cushion for making mistakes and some confidence trying new content because it's easy to remember/relearn/use all the way up to the current expert roulette.

Not arguing whether or not this is how SE should approach it, just that this looks like their goal...

Longer comment tres...

My own clumsy, off the top of my head sketch for some of this...

1. Add lililes earlier.

2. Give one or two buttons that rely on/consume lilies.

3. Focus on the theme of WHM in the game -- elemental/nature magic -- for designing a unique contribution (because SE isn't going to heavily prune AST and SCH healing and dps just to let WHM stand out).

How this premise plays out can go many ways. To offer a lackluster, unpolished example...

Not major insights or mind-blowingly awesome suggestions, but if you want to vent because of my words here they are in full for your consideration. If my ideas or opinions suck or are idiotic and unworthy, I want to get credit for the whole package

In any case, I hope 5.0 brings you a WHM you can be happy with however it all turns out.

[Mansion]

Well we are now the Assize-Mage. I'm fine with this until 5.0

But to be more serious, I don't remember where we already covered that but I don't think the "easy" argument stands in WHM's favour. Because other easy jobs have their utility/good performances.
And it would cost nothing to add something to WHM that would make it useful in a raid scene, without touching it's straightforward kit/identity. A clipping solution that is not overall DPS loss or overheal, for instance. Or an added effect to Confessions other than a free heal.
This could also have been solved by a real Lillies mini-game. Stacking more lillies and have original actions using them (if we have a way to use them efficiently in our rotation of course).

[tinythinker]

Well we are now the Assize-Mage. I'm fine with this until 5.0

But to be more serious, I don't remember where we already covered that but I don't think the "easy" argument stands in WHM's favour. Because other easy jobs have their utility/good performances.
And it would cost nothing to add something to WHM that would make it useful in a raid scene, without touching it's straightforward kit/identity. A clipping solution that is not overall DPS loss or overheal, for instance. Or an added effect to Confessions other than a free heal.
This could also have been solved by a real Lillies mini-game. Stacking more lillies and have original actions using them (if we have a way to use them efficiently in our rotation of course).

Agreed that it would be easy to have changed a cast speed here and a damage potency there (I've been in favor of that as well), but they didn't. And in the comment just above yours is a link to a lily minigame I came up with (not the best but it gets at the idea).

Yet SE didn't do these things. They might still in a month or so but it's interesting they didn't with this patch release. So it seems that either they may not solely be looking at end-game when making these decisions (many of the 4.x changes are amazing for QoL for the pug healer in DF) or they disagree with the assessment of the degree or nature of WHM's shortcomings at end-game. We won't know for sure until 5.0 since this is meant to be a band-aid patch for job performance.

[Mansion]

Fully agreed actually.

I'm raising ideas and quoting yours for the lilly minigame for the purpose of the discussion. But the more I think of it, the more it seems Squeenix values more the easiness of WHM than its overall performance, all content included. Basically, that's just it. We can ramble about how things could have been for pages long of forum discussion, they did not do much. I think they want to maintain this "open door" to healing and only touch it in case of emergency / when it no longer makes any difference (this is the case for 4.5).

[tinythinker]

Fully agreed actually.

I'm raising ideas and quoting yours for the lilly minigame for the purpose of the discussion. But the more I think of it, the more it seems Squeenix values more the easiness of WHM than its overall performance, all content included. Basically, that's just it. We can ramble about how things could have been for pages long of forum discussion, they did not do much. I think they want to maintain this "open door" to healing and only touch it in case of emergency / when it no longer makes any difference (this is the case for 4.5).

Heh. Rambling is all there is for now with 4.5 out

[technole]

I sometimes call the job, Whine Mage.

Diehards of the job just can't stand it is a basic healing role, and when it lost luster even as a progression healer they just resort to starting threads bashing Scholar and Astro.

The 4.5 changes are enough to calm people down, but the best solution long-term is just throwing the lilies in the trash come 5.0.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

At the very least, it does seem like they're prepping to change the Lily system.
Assize CD basically being shortend to what 3 lilies would normally achieve is basically them saying they know no one uses Lilies for this so we might as well.

As for why WHM wasn't buffed more...I have no idea. Perhaps they're seeing something we're not? Perhaps they take healing into larger consideration than any of us do? Who knows, WHM has always been treated very weirdly in this game. And I definitely don't buy that it's intentionally weaker to cater to the beginners, because if that was the case PLD and RDM would also have to be considerably worse than other jobs since they're equally as beginner friendly.

Nothing we can do but wait till 5.0 now, but it feels like to me they haven't given up the pure healer mess for WHM and we're going to have another expansion of this...

[technole]

PLD was much further behind than WHM ever was. Circle of Scorns was on a long cool down and it was the only AoE they had for a long time. Shield Oats penalty was too large, and Alexander Savage was primarily catered towards magical damage which DRK had a clear advantage with Dark Mind being on a short cool down. If anything, there was more work for every job bringing a PLD.

If anything WHM is just a victim of oddball decisions, and healer parity has never been better in this game. As soon as they get out of the Lily mess, the sooner they can make sensible changes to where each skill makes sense again. Assize is a good step for now.

[Ghishlain]

I feel a lot of WHM mains would be happy as long as WHM can bring top DPS compared to all the other healers. I'll always be of opinion that those jobs that have to play at both a high skill and party coordination level should trump (and thus be meta) those jobs that only need to play at a high skill level. However, those in the latter category should still bring something to the table. In the case of FFXIV, these jobs bring the highest individual DPS possible (BLM and SAM) and WHM should fall into this category as well.

Right now, one of WHMs strength is being able to perform well without much input from the rest of your party. Assize's large range means you'll be able to clip people who wouldn't normally be in range for Earthly Star or Deployed Adlo. Medica II can clip people when Succor and Aspected Helios could not. WHM's DPS SHOULD be equal to or better than AST and SCH rDPS contribution in a party of average skilled players, as the power of their buffs is a function of the total party DPS.

Part of the strengths of the SCH and AST kits is being able to take advantage of coordinated party heals and shields that have limited range. Once the party starts to move outside that effective range, as it is likely to do in a PuG situation, the WHM kits becomes a bit more desirable. Say what you will about the 700+ potency Earthly Star provides - if even a single party member is outside the range of the explosion, the healers will need to dump additional resources on to the party members that missed that massive heal and thus reduce healer DPS uptime.

That's part of why I like the WHM kit so much, the level of power and control I can have with very little input from the rest of the party makes it ideal in pulling parties through fires. Fixing Lilies aside, give me the DPS resources to out perform the pDPS contribution of SCH and AST and I will be a very happy camper with the WHM kit.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Say what you will about the 700+ potency Earthly Star provides - if even a single party member is outside the range of the explosion, the healers will need to dump additional resources on to the party members that missed that massive heal and thus reduce healer DPS uptime.

I know what you're saying here, but Assize isn't WHMs heal bomb. Cure III is, and Cure III is every bit as limiting as Earthly Star. If anything, the massive jump in mobile healing while on AST feels even better when I jump on my AST to heal.
It probably seems like WHM has better healing because there's nothing else to focus on for the job, which is a valid point I suppose.