Is it wrong to run Castrum Abania as a tank at ilvl 272

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

Wow. This thing is still going. It boils down to this: if you're going to do Castrum Abania specifically and repeatedly you should at least have nq base gear for it--especially for an essential role. If you've gotten pretty much nothing but ARR and HW dungeons for leveling roulette and suddenly get it at level 69...? I've been there. Its definitely a wince moment but one of those things where wasting the amount of gil it would take to be 'properly' geared at that point is probably not something im going to do. Not at one more level. Obviously, i'm going to equip whatever drops but ehhhh.

Story gives you hq gear but you only get one crack at it. For all your other roles its fairly expensive and in the case of the op, impractical at that stage--it was one of the rare times Leveling spits out a level-appropriate dungeon. They didn't que for it on purpose. Shame on them I suppose, but I've also grinded SB dungeons for gear (for other roles) only to get nothing over 59 doing roulettes. Its an annoyance but just one of the many curveballs DF likes to throw our way. We'll see even more levels of ridiculousness in Shadowbringers I suspect.

[whiskeybravo]

I don’t understand this: people give you what you asked for, but then you accuse them of being “biased”? Why is that? Is it because some of the posters who answered you are raiders? Because they’ve mentioned previously about caring about their gear? Because they disagree with your position? What is your criteria for calling it biased?

It is a biased crowd. Myself and Fynlar are the only ones to seemingly hold ground, every one else scampered away. Obviously there are people on both ends of the fringes, those who skate by with bare minimum and those who want to farm every last drop. So it was a poorly thought out question on my part to begin with.

This comment is fairly uncalled for, to be honest. It’s just a derisive comment against those who gave you exactly what you asked for. It’s been discussed previously that the difference between i290 (beginner 70 gear) and i380/i390 (current 70 gear most available to the masses) is less than the difference between i270 (Shire or Shisui) and the level 68 HQ crafted. The same applies for i380 > i400: it’s, at most, survivability cushioning for o11s and o12s.

How so? If they are such a stickler about gearing for leveling content then surely they are sticklers about gearing for other content as well. No double standards here?

No, as far as I am aware, they did not. But how is you getting testy over “people assuming the worst” when it’s very possible you could be “assuming the best” with your comment about the gear? Were you assuming that their not-i270 pieces were some of the best they could get (weapon, body, or legs)? If so, how does that really make you different from those assuming the worst? Speaking for myself, I was assuming smaller upgrades, as getting accessories and perhaps a belt or maybe hands/feet seems to be far more common (and easier since there are 4 accessories) than getting a major piece such as the body or legs.

I didn't assume anything. I simply went to Excel to make a calculator that I could play with to see how many pieces of 276 and 282 gear would be required to achieve 272. More than a couple.

No, item level does not “trump all” for tanks, but you are speaking about something that has to deal with endgame tanking and the maximizing of substats, not leveling, where the focus is not on substats.

Again, there is a larger difference between the DEF/M.DEF and main stats of SB leveling gear than there is between the DEF and main stats of the gear available at cap. Considering most posters are pointing out the discrepancies in DEF/M.DEF and NOT substats, accessories shouldn’t even be considered in the argument, as they give only 1/1.

It is absolutely not restricted to end game tanking. Any tank worth his salt will tell a leveling tank they should wear at least a couple of the 270 str accessories if for no other reason than better aggro management. Tanks have more than enough tools to survive. Gear alone isn't going to help a tank that doesn't know how to CD properly.

If you’re accusing me of harassment, I think you should go through and actually re-read the thread in its entirety.

Disagreeing with your position that the gear isn’t an issue does not consitute as harassment either. I’m allowed to disagree with you on a public forum, as are others.

It wasn't pointed at you specifically.

If a undergeared tank is "harassing" the group by making the healer's job too hard, and clearly by the op's story 272 fits that, it will be valid to kick them. You do realize the OP here is only one side of the story right?

No, if the tank showed up in level 1 glamour and refused to change gear - that would be harassment. Clearly this is not what happened. So who is harassing who?

[Hamada]

How so? If you are such a stickler about gearing for leveling content then surely they are sticklers about gearing for other content as well. No double standards here?

Stop twisting words. I am going to state something very blunt to make you understand better. You are acting like we are asking people Doma Castle to get 282 for Castrum Abania. that is not the case. It is us stating the game throws gear at you left and right, and if you have issues putting gear on from Doma Castle and Bardam's Mettle then there is issues. If you are going to say something like "People shouldn't have to spend time on that" (even though you would be running these for exp anyway?) with HoH now, keep in mind this thread was made after HoH since it was made a few days ago, if you cannot bother to gear, do not hit "leveling roulette" go to HoH, you have no business burdening others because you want to be lazy.

SE expects people to have some self responsibility and thought ilevel requirements was not necessary for programing, clearly you are proving them wrong.The only "biased crowd" here is you and Fynlar. I am holding my ground in telling you not to tell others to enter dungeons undergeared.

No, if the tank showed up in level 1 glamour and refused to change gear - that would be harassment. Clearly this is not what happened. So who is harassing who?

You should have enough understanding what the point of that conversation is. We only know one side of the OP's story, as is, the Op could be just as guily with the harassment. You need to read between the lines a bit, here is a key statement for the following I am about to say:

I am a veteran of this game and i know how to play and whats fair and whats not IN MY OWN OPINION, but i guess i am coming to the forums to look for a little reassurance and get other peoples views on this situation as well.

If someone has enough arrogance to state something like this, then it is very likely they where causing problems on a social level back to the healer and dps. Not only is the statement itself a bit of a problem, but thinking it was fine to under gear and trying to shift all blame to others? I do not think so. (Others already explained the issues with healing in that situation and how that can impact failing mechanics, please do not reply with something where I can simply dig up those quotes to reply to it. Also if this statement was 100% true, they would known to enter there in better gear.)

You said

"But we can certainly prove by deductive reasoning that SE is OK with entering Castrum Abania in whatever gear your wearing when you unlock it since there is no other explicit limitation or requirement set forth."

this does not fit being i272 for Castrum Abania. This can imply SE would expect something like people having a mix set of gear from Bardam's Mettle,Doma Castle, Shisui of the Violet Tides/ augmented shire, making a person hover around 275-278. But you are supporting i272 is fine because w/e goes, if that is the case, entering naked would fly with your point of view with such a statement too.

[whiskeybravo]

Stop twisting words.

Oh, must've hit a soft spot with that one.

This can imply SE would expect something like people having a mix set of gear from Bardam's Mettle,Doma Castle, Shisui of the Violet Tides/ augmented shire, making a person hover around 275-278. But you are supporting i272 is fine because w/e goes, if that is the case, entering naked would fly with your point of view with such a statement too.

If OP was 275 instead of 272 I doubt this conversation would've went differently. How could anyone possibly argue against a level of intelligence that concludes 272 = naked?

[HyoMinPark]

It is a biased crowd. Myself and Fynlar are the only ones to seemingly hold ground, every one else scampered away. Obviously there are people on both ends of the fringes, those who skate by with bare minimum and those who want to farm every last drop. So it was a poorly thought out question on my part to begin with.

If you and Fynlar are the only ones “to seemingly hold ground”, then where do you get off accusing others of beating a dead horse? Aren’t you guys essentially doing the same by coming back to a revived thread just to argue with the new/returning posters in here? Sorry, but that seems a tad hypocritical to me.

Speaking for myself, I left the conversation because it got to a point of being entirely circular—I was arguing the same things over and over again and just repeating myself to one individual who thinks personal anecdotes are the be all end all of this debate. Rather than waste posts on a pointless endeavor, I just left. That doesn’t mean that I don’t still stand behind everything I have said.


In terms of farming gear from dungeons, with me it depends on which role I’m playing and which upgrades I have already received. For tanks and healers, I tend to take more care in getting weapon and body upgrades. With DPS, I will take upgrades I get, but I tend to not farm for the weapons as much unless my weapon is incredibly poor—when I unlocked RDM on my alt, I spent my poetics on getting left side for her, and then tried to farm both Dusk Vigil and Sohm Al for the weapon because the NQ i115 rapier is incredibly poor. Sadly, I didn’t have much luck with Dusk Vigil, but I did get the one from Sohm Al (however, she’s now level 58 and could honestly use another upgrade by now).

With her AST, I did take care to make sure I kept her weapon upgraded so that I wouldn’t struggle as much with healing should a squishy tank situation arise (and I actually did have a tank in the Aery with i90 gear that I had to baby a little bit—it’s disconcerting seeing a tank with 1,000 less HP than me as a healer in i130).

How so? If you are such a stickler about gearing for leveling content then surely they are sticklers about gearing for other content as well. No double standards here?

I already answered the first part: the difference in DEF/M.DEF upgrades in i290 to relevant gear is LESS than that of the difference in leveling gear, and the entire conversation has revolved around how Stormblood leveling gear offers higher DEF/M.DEF than Augemented Shire. (VIT was also considered and discussed, albeit to a lesser extent. I acknowledge that the VIT gains from Augmented Shire to level 64+ HQ gear are also extremely important for tank survivability as it allows for more healing room while they’re eating autos to the face.)

I don’t see anyone advocating that a tank in Castrum Abania absolutely has to have the best possible gear for them at that level, but an adequate mix of upgrades that makes the run smoother (keyword here is adequate mix, not just a few right-side pieces that inflate item level but not give much else in terms of cushioning/survivability) and NOT a bunch of gear that started becoming obsolete two dungeons ago.

Speaking for myself, I don’t expect anyone to come into current Savage in full i400 — hell, I cleared the first two floors in my i370 gear. However, I also don’t appreciate seeing people coming into current Alphascape in majority i350/i360 gear (or lower!), as was the case in a couple Chaos learning groups I joined last week when trying to learn how to heal the fight as opposed to just BRDing it. Just like I didn’t appreciate seeing people in Exdeath/Neo-Exdeath wearing a bunch of i315 dungeon gear when the tier was unlocked. It makes my job as a healer unnecessarily annoying, as now I have to make sure to baby those with inadequate defenses and health against raid-wide damage—and if they fudge up a mechanic, there is a possibility they won’t survive the hit where as a geared DPS can live getting hit by one (even if it’s just barely in some cases—this isn’t talking about things that will just one-shot anyone that isn’t a tank).
When your DPS have lower HP values than you do as a healer with zero VIT melds in Savage content, I feel like there is cause for concern. Specifically referring to the Chaos groups I was in, there was a DPS that joined who was wearing i350/i360 in nearly everything, with the only i380/i390 pieces being a couple accessories. Their weapon was the Anemos weapon. There were no melds. While this was manageable in Chaos (though still annoying because I had to pay closer attention to them than anyone else), I would be absolutely furious to see this in o11s or o12s—they just wouldn’t be able to survive raidwides. I probably wouldn’t like it in o10s either if they were constantly eating things and getting vulnurability stacks.


It seems to me that you’re just grasping at straws here, and just trying to shift the goalposts to gearing at endgame from gearing while leveling. That, and just being deliberately derisive against posters who literally gave you what you asked for. Your comment about how people wait for i400 (i.e., the best possible gear) to enter Alphascape Savage it irrelevant to the conversation at hand because no one has said anything about how tanks should have FULL HQ LEVEL 68 CRAFTED (which would be the equivalent to full i400). I think a mix of gear from both Bardam’s and Doma is fine, with supplemental level 66/68 if you have been unlucky—primarily with regards to weapon and body/legs. I don’t think majority Shire is fine if said majority is left-side.

I didn't assume anything. I simply went to Excel to make a calculator that I could play with to see how many pieces of 276 and 282 gear would be required to achieve 272. More than a couple.

Okay, and that still doesn’t change that the pieces in mind can be either weapon/body/legs or mere accessory upgrades (the “best” and “worst”, respectfully), or the pieces in between that make less of an impact than the “best” but more than the “worst” (head/gloves/feet and belt). With the lack of elaboration, this point doesn’t hold much weight—it’s fairly vague at what you’re specifically getting at; to me, it sounds like you’re saying it just to make the point of “the OP wasn’t full i270 Shire” but are ignoring the variations and specific gear combinations that could bring one to that item level. Not all pieces of gear are equal in terms of their “value”—i.e., weapon/body/legs are the most valuable in terms of gain for defense, main-, and substats, and accessories are on the lower end.

It is absolutely not restricted to end game tanking. Any tank worth his salt will tell a leveling tank they should wear at least a couple of the 270 str accessories if for no other reason than better aggro management. Tanks have more than enough tools to survive. Gear alone isn't going to help a tank that doesn't know how to CD properly.

Your reference to max level tanks not having higher item levels compared to other roles deals with substat optimization at endgame—you said absolutely nothing about enmity management. Tanks at endgame have worn pentamelded crafted accessories strictly for the optimization it gives them in terms of damage. The debacle at the beginning of SB over i270 versus the new i320 was strictly for optimization. I don’t think that enmity was the larger concern there, nor between the i320 crafted and i340 Genji/Lost Allagan or the i350 crafted and i370 Diamond/Ryumyaku.

That being said, I personally think most “tanks worth their salt” would tell leveling tanks to focus on weapon and left-side upgrades to make the leveling experience more comfy, and then focus on substat optimization later on when they get to the endgame gear progression if they are wanting to dip their toes into things like Savage and optimizing damage output—because that’s where the accessories would matter most. If you can find me tanks mains (ones that are actually into optimization—I’d rather hear from them as opposed to feelycrafters) other than yourself that can advocate otherwise, however, then I will concede.

It wasn't pointed at you specifically.

I don’t really recall anyone here advocating the harassment of undergeared players, but pointing out to someone “Hey, you’re a bit undergeared, and that’s making you squishy” is not harassment. If the person they’re speaking to about being undergeared becomes overly defensive and disruptive and the party decides to remove them, that isn’t harassment either.

I don’t advocate for straight kicking without giving a person a chance—provided that they are not EXTREMELY UNDERGEARED, or that they do not turn into a big baby when someone pointed out their lack of gear—but that doesn’t mean I won’t be annoyed by having to baby a squishy tank. I can be still be annoyed whilst saying nothing about it—and I generally don’t say anything because I just want the dungeon over with. It takes quite a bit for me to actually speak up in chat about something I’m annoyed with.

[Anslee]

bro how you going to get mad at someone in a nm raid for a low ilv they have to gear up some how

[HyoMinPark]

bro how you going to get mad at someone in a nm raid for a low ilv they have to gear up some how

Not sure who this is in response to, but if it’s myself, I’m referring to Savage—since whiskeybravo explicitly said they guessed the people who are sticklers for “proper gearing in leveling content” are the same who think players should go into Savage in full i400. We weren’t discussing a normal mode 8-man, but Savage. The poster above you is also referring to Savage raids, not the normal modes.

[Fynlar]

Fynlar, my brother, I love you and you are doing God's work, but for someone who has leveled every class to 70, you seem to have so little understanding of how group synergy and teamwork plays a role in an online game, especially in a group of random individuals who are likely far less experienced than yourself. It feels like though you leveled the classes you did so just to have the classes leveled rather than to actually learn them and how they work with each other.

All I did was PUGs to level up, so don't act like I have no experience with "random individuals"

I was definitely better at some classes than others, but the leveling process was still never so difficult that I struggled just to clear some 4-man dungeon.

I've been playing MMOs for nearly two decades. I have some idea of how "teamwork" works, thanks. No, I don't happen to think that most content in this game, especially the easier content like 4-mans, requires you to have the best possible stuff for you to not be considered a leech to your group.

With the argument your using is true, theres no thing as undergeared on leveling dugeons or dungeons general.

That's never what I said and it isn't what I think, so good job misrepresenting my argument and then dismissing it as "bait".

It's rather amusing that some of the ones defending undergeared players somehow forget that the average DF is not very competent at their jobs...

I have been repeatedly calling it the Doody Finder in this thread for a reason.

The thing is, bad player skill is not made up for by the difference between i270 and Doma gear or whatever it is that's best before Abania. It's also not going to make those with good player skill suddenly start struggling.

Stop telling people it is ok to undergear please

Stop bringing up the point that you can queue naked please. Nobody here is advocating for that.

Some of the people in this thread don't seem to realize what a straw man is, so I've pointed out a couple examples and even provided a helpful link.

[whiskeybravo]

I don’t see anyone advocating that a tank in Castrum Abania absolutely has to have the best possible gear for them at that level, but an adequate mix of upgrades that makes the run smoother (keyword here is adequate mix, not just a few right-side pieces that inflate item level but not give much else in terms of cushioning/survivability) and NOT a bunch of gear that started becoming obsolete two dungeons ago.

Who defines adequate? You? Me? The OP? Hamada? SE?

Who?

It seems to me that you’re just grasping at straws here, and just trying to shift the goalposts to gearing at endgame from gearing while leveling. That, and just being deliberately derisive against posters who literally gave you what you asked for. Your comment about how people wait for i400 (i.e., the best possible gear) to enter Alphascape Savage it irrelevant to the conversation at hand because no one has said anything about how tanks should have FULL HQ LEVEL 68 CRAFTED (which would be the equivalent to full i400). I think a mix of gear from both Bardam’s and Doma is fine, with supplemental level 66/68 if you have been unlucky—primarily with regards to weapon and body/legs. I don’t think majority Shire is fine if said majority is left-side.

I haven't shifted the goal posts at all, I've been trying to stick to the OP story - without everyone's anecdotes stacked on top.

“Hey, you’re a bit undergeared, and that’s making you squishy” is not harassment. If the person they’re speaking to about being undergeared becomes overly defensive and disruptive and the party decides to remove them, that isn’t harassment either.

Doesn't seem like it was quite that benevolent in OP's story. Yet again another strawman.

And yes, if somebody joins a duty I'm in and starts harassing another player for being 2 or 3 item levels undergeared. I'm just gonna report them now.

I can be still be annoyed whilst saying nothing about it—and I generally don’t say anything because I just want the dungeon over with. It takes quite a bit for me to actually speak up in chat about something I’m annoyed with.

This isn't the wrong approach to take. If someone in my duty is undergeared, it doesn't really change a damn thing. Whether I'm tanking or DPS'ing (I don't heal) I'm there to do my job and gtfo.

[Hamada]

I've been playing MMOs for nearly two decades. I have some idea of how "teamwork" works, thanks. No, I don't happen to think that most content in this game, especially the easier content like 4-mans, requires you to have the best possible stuff for you to not be considered a leech to your group.

So what if you been playing MMOs for nearly two decades,some I am sure some here have more then that. If you think Castrum Abania in i272 as a tank is acceptable teamwork then you got no clue what constitutes teamwork in this game.

Stop telling people it is ok to undergear please. I can bring up you can queue naked all I want when stuff like this is said:

"But we can certainly prove by deductive reasoning that SE is OK with entering Castrum Abania in whatever gear your wearing when you unlock it since there is no other explicit limitation or requirement set forth."

We are well aware what stawmans are, that is all you and whiskeybravo have been doing here, get a clue. Seeing you two stay away from points that you can even reply to because it defeats your position so hard should be enlightening to you who is doing the stawmans. I even EXPLAINED why that statement is implying support for being able to gear naked, such a shocker you did not reply to it.

You are living poof on this forum, why SE must put ilevel requirements for all dungeons because you got no clue what undergeared and teamwork is.

The thing is, bad player skill is not made up for by the difference between i270 and Doma gear or whatever it is that's best before Abania. It's also not going to make those with good player skill suddenly start struggling.

The only reason you are saying this is because you are ignoring what people say here.
I272 is too low for Castrum Abania and even with all this spam, you failed to show otherwise. You only think it is fine because you think you are winning a losing argument.

Who defines adequate? You? Me? The OP? Hamada? SE?

Who?

Clearly not you.
However it is simple logic, level 65 place drops 276, level 67 place drops 282, so why in the heck do you think i272 is fine for a level 69 dungeon? SE sets ilevels for level 70 things, seems like they need to do every dungeon because you need proof from the devs i272 is too low despite all the implied messages telling you it is. Do you math? did you read those posts? Math and the logic I gave here is what shows what is acceptable. You even said you do not heal, so you have no experence what it is like to heal an under geared tank, so you have a very weak view on this subject to begin with. Thank you for showing the world why your posts have no validity on this matter. Has Fynlar ever healed an under geared tank in a pug setting?

Stop being lazy, period.