DPS mentality in MMOs

[Adrestia]

I believe her argument isn't "stand in everything; healers adjust!" It's eat a mechanic you know won't kill you to maximize uptime. For example purposes, I'll use O10S. Melee DPS will typically stand inside Middy's hitbox regardless if it's in or out because it won't kill them and he jumps immediately after. The vuln stack going into add phase is negligible. You can also Bloodbath if needed, which helps mitigate the loss. Another example is in O9S. A BLM with Manawall will eat the Long/Lang blast so they don't lose casts in their Ley Lines.

What it boils down to is learning what you can get away with without making the healer work harder.

That’s correct, thank you. My first post in this thread already addressed that dumb play is dumb play. If you’re making yourself an unnecessary burden, that’s dumb. I’d never actually advocate for standing in something you were pretty sure would take you to that 0.01% mark, because if you got the upper end of the damage range wrong, the risks would outweigh the benefits. I mentioned that extreme number to remind that this game inflicts *no penalty* on your damage output due to lost HP (except Spirits Within!).

In fact, if you had a situation where you knew something would take you that low, say for instance they make a bad circle that hits for 7509 flat and you have 7550, and the situations lined up; say, there are targeted nukes on a couple of players and the one who chose to stand in the bad didn’t have one, knowing that an earthly star was about to be popped under their feet: it might be a genuine strategy decision (pre-agreed upon with your healers, typically) to face tank that for LB gain. But if you’ve spent your entire dungeoneering life mindlessly terrified of red circles without understanding why you should fear them, this may not occur to you or you may reflexively jump out of it in the moment, costing your group the LB, the kill, and the glory.

In short, the person I was responding to was proposing that if you’re not playing it “safe” it’s because you’re an idiot. Sometimes, and perhaps a fair bit of the time, that may be true. But simplifying the entire thing to “coward out of every situation because one day you might be in my dungeon and 2 minutes’ recovery from a wipe is too much to ask of me” boxes players into a tiny corner of the ways they could play the game effectively.

For FFXI players, it’s 3 hour SMN burn Kirins vs a 60 second TP burn. Sure, you might lose a pop set or two while gitguding, but you’re mastering skills that will save you untold hours of time, unlock TP burn of other fights like Baha v2, and generally becoming a more skilled player.

[Barraind]

That is true however we have all seen where the holy trinity is broken and everyone is a dps type of MMO fails ( cough cough Guild Wars 2 cough).

GW2 is (or was, at least) an incredibly solid game as long as you dont really like playing content in a traditional sense and want to mash V like its an always present active time event.

I had a blast with it until I realized every instance was "dodge roll a lot". Then they revamped some abilities and added small to massive damage buffs to your dodge roll. And then added group healing and damage buffs to your dodge roll. The guardian (think paladin but less) optimal scepter/torch rotation incorporated dodgerolling through things to set them on fire, heal yourself and power up your next spammy scepter ability. That was the end for me.

YES WE GET dodgeroll IT YOU HATE dodgeroll TANKS A healing_ability_to_refil_my_dodgeroll + dodgeroll ND HEALE dodgeroll RS!

[Sylve]

I just think its hilarious that Tanks in ARR complained that they were generating too much Enmity and wanted tools they could use once they had a safe Enmity lead.

Fast forward to Stormblood, Tanks still have that ability to generate an impossible to catch Enmity lead but cry and complain that they don't want to ever use those Enmity tools because 'muh deeps'.

Tanks are ever so fond of screeching at DPS to use emergency Enmity reduction tools while completely neglecting to ever use the Enmity generation tools they have.
I will intentionally rip hate off any Tank who tries to hold Enmity without Enmity Combos or Tank Stance up. You aren't going to outdps a dedicated and properly geared Damage Dealer. Ergo, your Enmity without modifiers will be lower. I caught your Enmity lead once, mathematically, I'll do it again. This is especially true in sub level cap dungeons where no one is overgearing the place.

You aren't utilizing the entirety of your job and role toolkit, why should I have to?
/s


While levelling my Black Mage in Shisui recently, had a DRK Tank who mass pulled right up to the wall in front of the first boss. I had to use Lucid near the end of the pull when all the mobs turned to angry red squares.
Soon as the mobs died, he bounced up and sprinted into the boss.
As soon as Diversion wore off, started creeping on his Enmity. Got some back to back Fire IV crits and took hate.
Lucid was on cooldown for 15 more seconds.
I literally had to stop casting and moving because the Tank, without Grit up, decided not to Provoke but to try to pull enmity back with DA Souleaters. Eventually he got it back, I waited a bit longer, resumed DPS, nearly took hate off him again during the vuln phase, and then it died.
He then screeched in all caps about Lucid and Diversion and dropped party.

Sadly, that's the mentality of Tanks these days. Putting their own personal numbers ahead of doing their main job - holding enmity and taking minimal damage.
That's fine in a Static party if that's the strategy you're going with, but you haven't got that level of teamplay with randoms.

[Adrestia]

Uh, those tank enmity tools you’re talking about have a significant opportunity costs. Lucid and Diversion have literally none.

“Intentionally ripping hate” off a tank is you just being an obstinate princess trying to boss people into playing your way because reasons.

The tank in your story was just bad. A good tank will recognize when, due to their gear, their skill, or whatever, they are incapable of doing their job, and they will adjust. Don’t conflate that with all tanks who don’t ride defensive stance and threat combos. Most don’t need to do that and it’s pure waste.

[Sylve]

Uh, those tank enmity tools you’re talking about have a significant opportunity costs. Lucid and Diversion have literally none.

“Intentionally ripping hate” off a tank is you just being an obstinate princess trying to boss people into playing your way because reasons.

The tank in your story was just bad. A good tank will recognize when, due to their gear, their skill, or whatever, they are incapable of doing their job, and they will adjust. Don’t conflate that with all tanks who don’t ride defensive stance and threat combos. Most don’t need to do that and it’s pure waste.

I agree on Diversion, and I use it regularly because its a skill that makes sense.
But disagree on Lucid. While it doesn't cost anything via the GCD, It does cost in MP management. If I have to blow Lucid on my RDM before I get anywhere near needing the Refresh, I just wasted an MP management tool. While not incredibly huge, it IS a cost.
As a Dragoon, I frequently have to use Elusive and then slow down dps afterwards or i'll go straight back to riding the Tank.

Also, for a DRK, DA boosted Souleater is the same potency as a DA boosted Powerslash (Enmity generator). Syphon hits slightly harder than spinning yes, but the difference in minimal unless boosted.
Warriors Butchers Block is higher potency than its alternatives, so have no excuse. Could argue that the 10 bonus Beast Gauge is a cost, but I don't believe its that large a cost.
Paladins are the only ones who can argue they lose a lot to use Rage of Halone over Royal Authority, as that's a big potency loss. But given that Circle of Scorn has bonus enmity on it, Enmity is less a problem for them.

I was being somewhat sarcastic about ripping hate, the entire top half of my post is kind of in jest, though I am strongly amused by the current state of Tank mentality.

The problem stems from what happens when a new Tank asks advice on how to Tank. They get told "Just use dps combos, dps manage their own enmity and Tank stance is worthless". Which leads to the current crop of Tanks who never use Enmity combos or use Tank Stance when its appropriate to do so.
Kind of exactly like what I experienced with that DRK.
Sure, you can say "Well he was justy bad!" But he was operating on bad information, the community is just as at fault for his poor play.
People look up guides, misinterpret the information given and do what normal people see as dumb things. Like Tanks who get told that they have to mass pull everything, then try to mass pull in content they're not obscenely overgeared for and … splat. Then begins the blame game.
Tanks should be taught Tank Stance and Enmity first. When you are comfortable with your Enmity lead and the healer isn't having issue, then you're free to go for the more advanced route of DPS Stance+Combos all day long. If you see DPS creeping up, switch a DPS combo for an Enmity combo to chunk them down a peg. Your loss of DPS is minor and irrelevant outside of bleeding edge undergeared world first savage clears.

Unfortunately, the advanced play is what a lot of people are regurgitating onto less experienced Tanks. The result is plain to see. Teach them the basics first, then optimize.

[AxlStream]

Yeah... as a tank, if I see no lucid/diversion used, I will gladly let you rip hate. Even maybe help you by shirking you so you die quicker and reset your enmity.

[Ilan]

I agree on Diversion, and I use it regularly because its a skill that makes sense.
But disagree on Lucid. While it doesn't cost anything via the GCD, It does cost in MP management. If I have to blow Lucid on my RDM before I get anywhere near needing the Refresh, I just wasted an MP management tool. While not incredibly huge, it IS a cost.

In which normal situation would you need lucid as a RDM? In exactly 1 and thats to reduce your emnity! Everything else is situational, before you come up with the excuse that you could have to raise, thats no reason to hold that skill.

Aggro managment is not only the tanks job its the job of the whole party and if someone doesn't help with that i would blame no tank if he even shirks this person. He would even get my commendation for that.

[Adrestia]

I was being somewhat sarcastic about ripping hate, the entire top half of my post is kind of in jest, though I am strongly amused by the current state of Tank mentality.

Oh good, very glad to hear it. You seem to "get it" too much to still be that type and it was hard to read.

Also, for a DRK, DA boosted Souleater is the same potency as a DA boosted Powerslash (Enmity generator). Syphon hits slightly harder than spinning yes, but the difference in minimal unless boosted.

I haven't played DRK since they removed ripped the heart and soul out of it in 4.0, but the big loss here at least used to be in the MP regain from Syphon Strike. That would mean less DA for things, including defensives like Dark Mind and now TBN. Of course I'd still rather the DRK hold (or at least have an incredibly quick plan to regain) hate than not, but losing out on MP can throw off an entire rotation. Even though the potency loss is high on PLD, at least one RoH combo can slot in place of one RA combo, and Shelltron can get you back the lost MP before your next Requiesecat window. Well, unless you need that Shelltron for something else.

The problem stems from what happens when a new Tank asks advice on how to Tank. They get told "Just use dps combos, dps manage their own enmity and Tank stance is worthless". Which leads to the current crop of Tanks who never use Enmity combos or use Tank Stance when its appropriate to do so.

I do think it's a very unfortunate truth about this community that a lot of people espouse the idea of "Do X always anything else is wrong," and I see that both with people saying you need to ride tank stance and people saying there's never a place for an enmity combo. For my own part, I try hard to always make a point that a good player is one who has the smarts and the situational awareness to adapt on the fly. I've been in and been a raid leader in some bleeding edge progression guilds in various games, and have absolutely encouraged some use of "defensive" gameplay, such as doing early early progression on a boss with tank stances, overhealing, healing buffs at the expense of damage buffs, whatever was a thing in those games; sometimes even doing a few pulls where no one is doing rotations, just watching for buffs/debuffs, add spawns, visual cues, whatever was relevant. But you also have to know when it's time to start pushing hard with the rotations and cooldown alignments so that you build good habits.

It's not an exact science, and that's something both mentors (lower case m) and new players need to keep in mind. If you can paint-by-numbers, you can clear the content, eventually. Assuming people don't burn out from the agony of every tiny new thing being a roadblock. But if you can learn the tools you have, understand when to use them, and adapt on the fly, you will get a lot farther a lot faster.

[Shurrikhan]

[1] There is a significant difference between current raid buffs and what a pure support job would have to offer. [2] Taking my aforementioned figure, 7,500 rdps exclusively through buffs amounts to 1,071 for each individual party member. This immediately becomes mandatory because people like seeing their personal numbers balloon up. A prime example of this was 3.4 Astro. No one gave a damn WHM could contribute just fine. They wanted 10% aoe Balance. A pure support job is 3.4 Balance on steroids.

[Still 2.] Even if it wasn't a pure support job but one which heavily favored it. The same argument applies.People will prioritize having a job that buffs their numbers.

Two issues here.

1. You are arguing for a pure support, and I am explicitly not. I've argued only that no one has asked for a pure support, but simply something that actually feels like a support. Gameplay outweighs percentile rDPS to pDPS in making a satisfying support job. A rDPS passive battery is neither fun nor "supportive" in its feel. I very much doubt that XIV would implement a job that is literally incapable of solo content.
   
   
2. You have supplied an issue that has nothing to do with balancing and everything to do with xivrdps.com not being integrated with fflogs.com. That's it. That is the only issue with high-pDPS jobs at the moment and the only thing that would guarantee the presence of a support when otherwise balanced.

Edited to connect the dots more clearly via underlining, for those confused.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Two issues here.

1. You are arguing for a pure support, and I am explicitly not. I've argued only that no one has asked for a pure support, but simply something that actually feels like a support. Gameplay outweighs percentile rDPS to pDPS in making a satisfying support job. A rDPS passive battery is neither fun nor "supportive" in its feel. I very much doubt that XIV would implement a job that is literally incapable of solo content.
   
   
2. You have supplied an issue that has nothing to do with balancing and everything to do with xivrdps.com not being integrated with fflogs.com. That's it. That is the only issue with high-pDPS jobs at the moment and the only thing that would guarantee the presence of a support when otherwise balanced.

... you literally quoted my pose where I explicitly say, "Even if it wasn't a pure support job but one which heavily favored it. The same argument applies. People will prioritize having a job that buffs their numbers."

Did you just... not read the second paragraph? Regardless, now you're arguing what is essentially "feels-craft." Gameplay doesn't outweigh anything when it comes to Savage. There's a reason Samurai spent a huge portion of the expansion being told "play Dragoon or Ninja." What you're advocating for is a more support oriented job even if it can still deal damage. Like I already, my prior argument still applies. People aren't going to care. The job will either inevitably become mandatory for FFlog chases or be deemed useless and ostracized. There needs to be a balance between good gameplay and pDPS/rDPS. A job can feel absolutely amazing to play, but if it doesn't contribute enough to compensate for its counterparts, people aren't going to bring it.

The closest equivalent to a support based job you will ever see in FFXIV is Bard—a job that is functionally a DPS but has support abilities baked in.