DPS mentality in MMOs

[Adrestia]

A dead DPS does zero dps.

A raised DPS does less dps.

Do the mechanics properly and use all of the abilities in your kit so the boss dies.

A DPS at 0.001% health who didn’t move out of an AoE they knew wouldn’t kill them, thus not disconnecting melee or canceling a cast, does more DPS than a coward. Use all of the resources in your kit so you don’t waste time. Health is a resource and only the last one matters.

[Gralna]

A DPS at 0.001% health who didn’t move out of an AoE they knew wouldn’t kill them, thus not disconnecting melee or canceling a cast, does more DPS than a coward. Use all of the resources in your kit so you don’t waste time. Health is a resource and only the last one matters.

*sigh* this community... mechanics don't matter, healers adjust. I can't think of a single encounter where not dodging dmg would result in a wipe outside of bleeding edge world first progression, and from what I've seen even they try to keep eating dmg to a minimum. Also nevermind that if the dmg was avoidable without having to stop dpsing that you just cost your healer a cd or ogcd skill to heal you.

Love this game, but everyday I lose more and more faith in this community.

[Adrestia]

*sigh* this community... mechanics don't matter, healers adjust. I can't think of a single encounter where not dodging dmg would result in a wipe outside of bleeding edge world first progression, and from what I've seen even they try to keep eating dmg to a minimum. Also nevermind that if the dmg was avoidable without having to stop dpsing that you just cost your healer a cd or ogcd skill to heal you.

Love this game, but everyday I lose more and more faith in this community.

The problem is, you're talking about playing it safe, which yes, will be "good enough," but it will never teach players what works and what doesn't. Essentially, you're being that selfish player who just wants your run to succeed and doesn't care that the people with you aren't growing at all. You mistakenly make the assumption that taking damage must mean your healer has to heal you. This is often not the case, due to AoE heals that are going to overheal, regens that were already ticking, out-of-combat regen between dungeon pulls, etc.

[Paladinleeds]

DPS is the be-all-end-all of optimisation in FFXIV. I'm not keen on it, but it is what it is. Especially where you're undergeared for the newest Savage, the DPS's DPS isn't going to be enough and you're going to need tank and healer DPS. If they make support worth more and they change the meta so that extra DPS is better, then the DPS mentality can be worked on changing. As it is, it's the best way to do it. Straight maths doesn't lie. Now, in expert dungeons and such do I care about optimisation of others? Nope, so long as we beat it. I can understand why others care about it though. But in Savage, you need your A-game so all that optimisation practice you made in expert dungeons etc, becomes useful in Savage.

This is not necessarily true. If the tank did a proper opener yet lost out, the likely culprit is someone else not using their enmity tools. For my own recent experiences. This happened in a Byakko EX party where a BLM not only refused to use Lucid or Diversion but demanded I spam Butcher's Block. Yeah, no. I elected to use him as a cooldown instead. It's absolutely infuriating to get DPS like that. Aggro has moved on from simply being a tank responsibility into a party responsibility. If a DPS cannot be bothered to press a single oGCD which in no way harms their rotation... they can tank the floor.

First thought that went through my head at that: "My name is Tate and I'm a cooldown!" From Nest's O10S
Source: https://youtu.be/AGgOlPR5Zhw?t=81

[Bourne_Endeavor]

SAM as well if they don't use Diversion properly. Their aggro reducer is based off of Third Eye and when they do use it, most use Hitsassu: Seigen for dps.

Seigan is a negligible loss. You'll have to use it sparingly assuming proper Shriks and Diversion usage. It's far less of an impact than Forbidden Charka. The bigger issue for MNK is they can't control Pacification. If they don't have stacks, they're just screwed. There's typically enough aoe going out SAM can make it work.

snip

There is a significant difference between current raid buffs and what a pure support job would have to offer. Taking my aforementioned figure, 7,500 rdps exclusively through buffs amounts to 1,071 for each individual party member. This immediately becomes mandatory because people like seeing their personal numbers balloon up. A prime example of this was 3.4 Astro. No one gave a damn WHM could contribute just fine. They wanted 10% aoe Balance. A pure support job is 3.4 Balance on steroids.

Even if it wasn't a pure support job but one which heavily favored it. The same argument applies. People will prioritize having a job that buffs their numbers.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

A DPS at 0.001% health who didn’t move out of an AoE they knew wouldn’t kill them, thus not disconnecting melee or canceling a cast, does more DPS than a coward. Use all of the resources in your kit so you don’t waste time. Health is a resource and only the last one matters.

You realize that if the DPS dodges the AoE, they're going to have more time to continue DPSing until the next AoE or raidwide damage comes, which is more than staying on the AoE and sacrificing themselves for a bit more DPS. Surviving nullifies sacrifice 90% of the time.

The problem is, you're talking about playing it safe, which yes, will be "good enough," but it will never teach players what works and what doesn't. Essentially, you're being that selfish player who just wants your run to succeed and doesn't care that the people with you aren't growing at all. You mistakenly make the assumption that taking damage must mean your healer has to heal you. This is often not the case, due to AoE heals that are going to overheal, regens that were already ticking, out-of-combat regen between dungeon pulls, etc.

Except game teaches from the very beginning that standing in orange = bad. Also wanting to clear isn't selfish. Learning opportunities should come naturally, not being forced by standing in AoEs so your healer was to work harder whether they want it or not. That mindset will only get you eventually kicked from parties because you're making their life harder unnecessarily, due to some twisted sense of "teaching them how the game works".

You remind of someone who once said (in another forum) that he'd gladly cause a 24 man wipe just to teach one of the tank a lesson.

[HyoMinPark]

In most (all?) contexts dps priority is 1- stay alive and keep others alive when applicable which involves not grabbing aggro, 2- do as much damage as possible ("possible" being the key word). In that order, not the other way around.

No, the job of a DPS is to do as much damage as possible. They are not responsible for keeping the party alive—that is the healer’s job.

Now, are they responsible for using mitigative tools (Addle, Apoc, Troubadour, Palisade, etc.) to aid in survival? Of course; when the situation calls for it. But it is not their job to literally stop attacking because a tank cannot maintain their aggro (this is under the assumption DPS are rotating their enmity tools—which all DPS have).

If a DPS is doing that and still ripping hate, it is usually due to a rotational problem on the part of the tank or a gear discrepancy between them and whoever is tanking. At this point, the tank may have to swap into their tank stance or do a couple enmity combos if the DPS in question has already tried to manage their own enmity but is still threatening to rip (via Diversion, Shadewalker, Elusive Jump, Refresh/Tactician, Lucid Dreaming, etc.).

I actively rotate both of my enmity dumps on BRD, but sometimes it is incredibly difficult for tanks with lower item level gear than me to hold hate off of me, especially if we do not have a NIN for Shadewalker/Smokescreen and especially if I just finished bursting (BRD burst is every 80 seconds). If the tank dies, this makes it even more difficult. However, it is not my job to stop attacking so that they can build up enough enmity—at that point, I’m literally failing to do the main focus of my role, which is to deal damage.

The fact that you already used your enmity reduction toolkit does not change that (which btw stopping dps is also a tool at your disposal). The fact that one of the tank's main jobs is to hold aggro does not change that. The fact that he could keep aggro with his toolkit does not change that, no matter how easy it is. Especially in a game where the optimized group effort goal is for tanks to build as little enmity as required to keep aggro in exchange for DPS.

See above.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You realize that if the DPS dodges the AoE, they're going to have more time to continue DPSing until the next AoE or raidwide damage comes, which is more than staying on the AoE and sacrificing themselves for a bit more DPS. Surviving nullifies sacrifice 90% of the time.

I believe her argument isn't "stand in everything; healers adjust!" It's eat a mechanic you know won't kill you to maximize uptime. For example purposes, I'll use O10S. Melee DPS will typically stand inside Middy's hitbox regardless if it's in or out because it won't kill them and he jumps immediately after. The vuln stack going into add phase is negligible. You can also Bloodbath if needed, which helps mitigate the loss. Another example is in O9S. A BLM with Manawall will eat the Long/Lang blast so they don't lose casts in their Ley Lines.

What it boils down to is learning what you can get away with without making the healer work harder.

[Ilan]

K. So the problem isn't DPS, it's time. People want to be as fast as possible; this requires everyone to do their job. Tanks have to hold agro, healers have to heal, and DPS must yes DPS.

Since the OP picked dungeon as an example let's use that. Dungeon runs for years now have require the tanks to pick up two to three packs of mobs, hold them, while the healer keeps the tank alive and the dps burn through them as fast as possible. If the tank isn't holding agro, they aren't doing their job to peak performance. If tank dies, most likely healer is the weak link. And if it takes forever to kill the group, DPS are to blame. Optimize runs require a perfect circle.

The Devs give each role the tools they need to do their job and it works fine in FFXIV save for in role problems, but I have never been in a raid where the tank loses agro to dps. OP, I'm not trying to hate on you but that scenario you mention the tank wasn't doing his agro management correctly. Level and gear had nothing to do with it at your level because it's all sync'ed down to fit your group.

Tanks control the flow of battle, healers keep the party alive, and DPS are damage dealers.

What you actually wanted to say is and i'm talking about a standard DF party, which means people know a bit how to play their class: If the tank isn't holding hate, the dps didn't use their emnity controll skills since tanks in DF rarely drop tankstance. If the tank dies it is either the healer didn't heal enough, unlikely, the dps was so bad that the healer ran out of mana and the tank ran completly out of cooldowns, not unlikely, or the tank didn't use any cooldowns and was standing in every avoidable shit, which is the most likely scenario in DF.

[Nora_of_Mira]

Love this game, but everyday I lose more and more faith in this community.

if we're still talking about dungeon runs in DF, and im wearing 400 iLvl gear, you can bet your butt Im gonna stand in AoEs that do 5-10% of my hp and dont give me dumb status effects. I can heal that with bloodbath/life surge/second wind at no cost to the healer.

In most (all?) contexts dps priority is 1- stay alive and keep others alive when applicable

I know you're not reading this thread anymore, but this just isn't the case in fights that have Enrages and DPS checks. Now I know in most cases, playing it slightly safer (missing a GCD here and there) wont be the difference between clearing and wiping with Enrages/DPS checks. But in my group at least, we all agree "if we're not trying our best, why are we trying at all" and we push all of ourselves to the limit when learning/progging/clearing a fight.

I get that this mentality doesn't make sense in casual content because dps checks and enrages dont exist there, but I found trying to go from savage to casual content (i play both because its fun) uniquely difficult because I cant so easily shrug off my DPS mentality in casual content. I spent SO much time learning my rotation and figuring out how to keep as much uptime as possible that I can't stop caring about it just because everyone else isn't trying as hard. that's just my 2c, idk what other people about this.