DPS mentality in MMOs

[Dyvid]

Please, if you are a DPS, read at least this :

-Don't pull before the tank, You are a DPS
-Manage your threat, so the Tank can do more DPS easily without fear.
-Avoid AoE and respect Mechanics, so the healers don't need to heal or raise you (I have done several dungeons in DPS and I don't even needed a heal or at least not making the heal make extra stuff.)
-Use your Two Healing cooldown. The healers will thanks you

-Don't pull is correct. Letting tanks pull is a good way for them to start their agro management. DPS should never pull since it's the tanks job to control the flow of battle.
-Manage your threat, so the DPS can do more DPS easily without fear. Sorry but your job isn't to dps, it's to control all the mobs. It's very annoying to see tank's in attack stance telling DPS to slow down because they lose agro.
-Avoid AoE. Goes without saying

[Nora_of_Mira]

-Manage your threat, so the DPS can do more DPS easily without fear. Sorry but your job isn't to dps, it's to control all the mobs. It's very annoying to see tank's in attack stance telling DPS to slow down because they lose agro.

If a tank is telling DPS to slow down bc they cant hold aggro, they're a bad tank. I tank in DPS stance and its my job to hold aggro whether I decide to play with or without tank stance. They have many tools to keep aggro while not using tank stance, it's their responsibility (the tank) to use them effectively.

[Dyvid]

If a tank is telling DPS to slow down bc they cant hold aggro, they're a bad tank. I tank in DPS stance and its my job to hold aggro whether I decide to play with or without tank stance. They have many tools to keep aggro while not using tank stance, it's their responsibility (the tank) to use them effectively.

And you sir are what separates great tanks from ok tanks. You understand how a tank works and how to play the role. /hatoff to you.

On a side note, just now in my Alliance run I was sitting at 30% health and had to stop my rotation to spam 80 potency Drain because the healers wanted to cast DPS spells. I'm not doing the numbers but I'm sure that was a dps loss no matter if it was me or another dps.

But as the Rock says:

[Nora_of_Mira]

But as the Rock says:

Yep, both examples weren't fulfilling their roles correctly and people had to adjust. I'm just nitpicking on tanks who wanna DPS but not hold aggro because the role is perfectly equipped to do both. Just like healers who wanna DPS and not heal, they can easily do both just fine w/o sacrificing the other.

[LalaRu]

Letting tanks pull is a good way for them to start their agro management....

Not to mention, who pulls now gets also a "pull aggro" bonus intended for tanks. The same bonus that let today tanks start aggro even with a regen active, thing that in the old times were just a call for a dead (inexperienced) healer (or more work for the tank, if you prefer).

Today I can start a pull with regen and if I aoe aggro after a reasonable time I still keep it, no aggro switch to healer. But even with that, regen a tank that is starting a pull of more groups of mobs is still a bad idea.

And pulling before the tank makes the tank take twice the time for regain aggro. If tank is inexperienced or low geared, the best action to do is let the dps eat its mob, because taking aggro back is an impossible mission.

If a tank is telling DPS to slow down bc they cant hold aggro, they're a bad tank. ... They have many tools to keep aggro while not using tank stance, it's their responsibility (the tank) to use them effectively.

Ok, you got a bad tank in your pug, now how you deal with it? I'll give your options, choose one:

• kick tank;
• deal with it;
• show everyone how your deeps is awesome and how much the tank is bad, continuing to pull/steal aggro of all mobs ahead;

The real problem with tanking is a painful learning curve, you get to be good just at the end, and everything before is being a 'bad' tank.

[Nora_of_Mira]

Ok, you got a bad tank in your pug, now how you deal with it? I'll give your options, choose one:

• kick tank;
• deal with it;
• show everyone how your deeps is awesome and how much the tank is bad, continuing to pull/steal aggro of all mobs ahead;

The real problem with tanking is a painful learning curve, you get to be good just at the end, and everything before is being a 'bad' tank.

I dont actually see that many bad tanks like I described in my DF pugs. The "worst" case I see is someone learning and pulling 1 group of mobs at a time, which is honestly fine. But a tank who chooses to drop Tank stance and still lose aggro is not a tank still in the learning process, they gave up on learning and just do what they want and that was the point I was making. I'm not concerned with people learning how to tank, it took me a really long time tanking since HW to get comfortable with that I do now.

[Adrestia]

But a tank who chooses to drop Tank stance and still lose aggro is not a tank still in the learning process, they gave up on learning and just do what they want and that was the point I was making.

I’m not sure I can agree with this. Unfortunately, XIV doesn’t provide much of a gradient of difficulty. If a player, in this case a tank, never pushes their limits, they will never learn beyond the very basics. At some point the training wheels, in the case you’re describing tank stance, need to come off for a player to see where they actually stand and what they still have to work on.

It sucks that so much of the content in the game is bite sized duty finder I-will-never-see-this-person-again stuff, because as a party member in say an expert roulette pug, you have no incentive to want your party members to use the party you’re in to grow as players. Thus all the animosity towards players who take risks, ANY risks, in DF. But then if these people aren’t also shuffling off to organized content that requires more effort on their part, that means they will never have an opportunity to get better. I don’t think it’s coincidence that the skill level of the average player is low. No one wants to give them a chance to gitgud.

[Nora_of_Mira]

I’m not sure I can agree with this. Unfortunately, XIV doesn’t provide much of a gradient of difficulty. If a player, in this case a tank, never pushes their limits, they will never learn beyond the very basics. At some point the training wheels, in the case you’re describing tank stance, need to come off for a player to see where they actually stand and what they still have to work on.

It sucks that so much of the content in the game is bite sized duty finder I-will-never-see-this-person-again stuff, because as a party member in say an expert roulette pug, you have no incentive to want your party members to use the party you’re in to grow as players. Thus all the animosity towards players who take risks, ANY risks, in DF. But then if these people aren’t also shuffling off to organized content that requires more effort on their part, that means they will never have an opportunity to get better. I don’t think it’s coincidence that the skill level of the average player is low. No one wants to give them a chance to gitgud.

I totally agree because that's the fault in the designed content given to use by SE, the learning curve is laughable and there is no reason to get better if you never step outside of dungeons and 24mans. Though in my post I'm assuming the tank is just being a jerk hole (as implied by the OP, maybe im just jumping the gun) and is just trying to get high personal DPS at the expense of other players.

A tank learning their limits juggling tank/dps stance, IMO, is more focused on keeping aggro than hitting the top of the charts. In that case, I would encourage them to take chances as they're clearly learning.

[Shurrikhan]

Not to mention, who pulls now gets also a "pull aggro" bonus intended for tanks. The same bonus that let today tanks start aggro even with a regen active, thing that in the old times were just a call for a dead (inexperienced) healer (or more work for the tank, if you prefer).

Today I can start a pull with regen and if I aoe aggro after a reasonable time I still keep it, no aggro switch to healer. But even with that, regen a tank that is starting a pull of more groups of mobs is still a bad idea.

And pulling before the tank makes the tank take twice the time for regain aggro. If tank is inexperienced or low geared, the best action to do is let the dps eat its mob, because taking aggro back is an impossible mission.

Engagement aggro is identical to that of popping a CD, iirc. I've never seen a tick of Regen fail to overwhelm it. You're probably just seeing the Regen tick first, creating no aggro against unengaged targets, and then the tank being seen. Before 3 seconds have elapsed for the next tick, the tank has either gained further aggro, has clicked his Regen off, or the Regen has faded.

That latter, likewise, depends. When I'm speedrunning with particularly good groups, DPS can make the gather take less time while allowing me to begin the standing fight at full HP where I otherwise would have had to start lower or later. It's not that cut-and-dry. When a mob would require you to linger for an extra Tomahawk, but has instead been drawn into the Overpower on the two mobs before it before touching anyone, the DPS has done you a favor all while readying for the gathered fight.

Likewise, if you're at the end of a fight or have AoE HoTs up for whatever reason, it's not an issue if one DPS for whom focus-targeting has become more efficient than pure AoE ends up stealing threat on a dying mob; the health will be automatically healed by the time you start the next fight, at the latest, without a point of additional mana or a single lost GCD on the healer's part. As long as it's not screwing up positional potency, it can be more efficient when tank HP is low and yours is full. Passive mitigation just isn't so extreme that it's worth reducing raid max HP (by adding in a bit of your DPS's health pools into the equation) for that modifier; eHP still favors spreading the damage around a little bit if it would be a non-issue and where the focused damage on your tank might cost an extra GCD otherwise. It's a small concern, but there is technically a window where it's optimal. And frankly, DPS aren't so squishy that they can't tank the majority of content. Mist Dragon is the only boss you even need mitigation or a shield for if at typically high ilvl.