Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

[Dreggit]

Shirk has some minute uses in some content. Example if you're doing solo Lakshimi starts you can decide who will be #2 for the air and use shirk to solidify their #2 position.

[SargentToughie]

Shirk has some minute uses in some content. Example if you're doing solo Lakshimi starts you can decide who will be #2 for the air and use shirk to solidify their #2 position.

Shirk is one of the most powerful enmity controlling tools put in the game, and every OT should be using it every time they have the opportunity, bar none.

Boss is casting something and isn't moving? OT, provoke the boss and use shirk on the MT. It's literally free enmity for pushing 2 sequential OGCDs. It gives the tank so much enmity that even DPS players that pride themselves on their deliberate obtuseness of not using their (Free OGCD) enmity control buttons can't catch up.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Shirk has some minute uses in some content. Example if you're doing solo Lakshimi starts you can decide who will be #2 for the air and use shirk to solidify their #2 position.

You can delay Shirk to accommodate this or in some cases, let the DPS handle it. For Lakshmi specifically, the cleave wasn't actually that threatening. Vrill+Shield and the DPS would live. Another option, especially now, is to use Ultimatum. If you're running Paladin though, Cover makes second aggro mechanics a non-issue.

The only tank you may have to resort to an aggro combo is with fights where aggro resets.

[Mixt]

And sometimes it's still not enough.

"Build up an initial aggro lead upon pull? Not my responsibility, shirk me and use enmity tools while i jump instantly into max deeps and not even try to help"

So much spinning in those first few moments.

Rocket healers on top of that?
And a Bard who has to use one of his two enmity dumps in reserve to keep those healers going, or die horribly because they ran out at a bad time?
While everyone else is riding the MT's coattails the whole way in spite of all efforts, while cursing the cooldown timers on enmity management skills?

It was never going to work.
If anything i'm surprised the healers didn't rip aggro before the bard did the way they were going. What were they even doing to burn so much mana in such a short time without ending up with the boss beating their faces in?

Neither the main tank or the healers were doing it right, the bard was trying to cover for horrifyingly bad MP management on part of said healers, and i think the other three DPS were deliberately crippling themselves to avoid getting a boss in the face, not that i blame them, besides it was normal mode so no enrage timer breathing down our necks.
Though that just makes the wiping even more annoying.

And somehow the bard is the only one being yelled at afterwards.


In hindsight i should have taken care to provide more complete information earlier before i made myself look silly.


EDIT: Another story, this one a lot more recent.

Warrior: Oops, i goofed on my cooldown management and am out of mitigation, and there is a tankbuster coming up. Do i A) Stay in DPS stance and face certain death even through healer shielding and the paladins intervention, or B) pop into Tank Stance for a bit and hope the extra HP along with said shielding and Intervention will let me survive.
But tank stance will reduce my DPS! I CHOOSE DEATH! *Get's exploded and loses even more DPS from being dead than he would have by going into Tank Stance*

Me: Welp, everyone who saw this coming, raise your hand.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

No offense, mate. I have raided with Bards far better than you've likely come across. One among them I happen to be in a static with. Outside of very rare circumstances, the tanks keep an enmity lead fine and the healers make do with their MP. What you're describing only happens if someone is screwing up somewhere along the way. That being said, BRD/MCH are the only jobs with an excuse to force an aggro combo, though the circumstances aren't common.

Is it silly Bards blow party resource tools to manage their aggro? Yes. But that's on the devs for not giving them Diversion when every other DPS has access to it. Regardless, the only time Bards should be sitting on Refresh is during prog. Afterwards, the healers should get good and stop overhealing, which is the only reason they'll have aggro or MP issues to begin with barring deaths, of course. Like I said, you should never sit on resources for "what if" moments. Bards sitting on Refresh will likely lose them a cast.

[Dreggit]

Shirk I agree is extremely powerful between tanks and it has a lot of utility on how you can use it to affect a fight. I was just giving an example on how it could have uses when there's only 1 tank in a duty since someone earlier said it could be considered offensive to use it on anyone other than a tank.

Shirk is one of the most effective ways to tank swap. I use it often

Just was making a point though that it's not always utilized on your co-tank

[Mixt]

Even if that's true, i still think the healers and the main tank were more to blame for that particular mess than the bard was.

I mean, the bard doing things the way he's supposed to led to the healers killing everyone by somehow burning their entire MP bars in a very short amount of time, and then not being able to heal anyone after that because there was no Refresh to be seen for several minutes.

While the MT wasn't even trying, and then went off on the first person who rips off him.

Even the faceroll easy normal mode is going to murder a party that screws up that badly.

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

So I talked to my static about this problem that I keep running into - or rather, have been for the last month or so. The whole issue with enmity. I'm... Not sure what else I could possibly do to deal with enmity if both Shade and Diversion are on cooldown. Aside from sabotaging my own dps. I'm.... Not exactly sure why you're insinuating that, in the situations that I am 100% at fault, Ursa.

'The DPS thing' that I referenced in my response to you was the tank being in dps stance. Thats the status quo I was referring to. As you are doing everything within your power to work with the situation, it is certainly not your fault that it keeps going FUBAR (not primarily anyway). If anything I think its just timing between you and the tank and with pugs its nearly impossible to get a feel for the group and adjust to each other. If you got that impression, I apologize. I was trying to commiserate. T-T

[HyoMinPark]

Expecting other roles to manage aggro just so they can stay out of tank stance and dps is not actually in anyone's job description. Is actually what I said. If you can stay in DPS stance and keep enmity then I've got no argument. If you can't, then you can adjust by going back into tank stance or enmity combos or... whatever. Aggro dumping is for when there's some reason why the tank has lost aggro and you're suddenly about to be Enemy Number One. It's not something you should be having to hit every time it's off CD while your tank is whaling away in Defiance or Blood Sword (unless you've got a party that's prepared for that--I know you need all the DPS you can get in high-end). I'm tired of this thing going around where you're suddenly a crappy tank if you can't stay in DPS mode or if you use enmity combos. It's making inexperienced tanks do really stupid things because that's what they think is expected.

Aggro dumping is a stop-gap to not dying. It is not there to empower tanks. If a tank is struggling, then yes, the party needs to adjust. But if that tank is struggling to live up to the hype instead of doing their job, well... My enmity skills (or skill, depending on the job) are essentially for ME, and have a long cool-down. Good luck.

I promise you that pressing Diversion or Lucid Dreaming (or Refresh or Tactician) will not lower your personal DPS. Not pressing it, however, lowers the tank’s damage, which, in turn, hurts the DPS of the raid. Considering tanks are pulling over 5,000 DPS now, it’s not a “tank DPS doesn’t matter” situation.

Plus, it’s just downright disrespectful to not do your part and manage your own enmity, just as you manage your own damage output. If both tanks are actively Provoke+Shirking one another and you’re still riding the MT’s butt, press Diversion/Lucid. Don’t demand they cut their damage because you don’t want to press a button. You lose absolutely nothing by weaving either of them. Even on a BLM.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I feel like people are trying to pass this off as the new meta party mentality. I'm down with being more aware of personal enmity. I'm not down with that as the expectation so a certain job doesn't have to do it's job. :/

Except you're the one not doing your job properly. Aggro is a party responsibility. Diversion, by its very description, is intended to be used during burst phases as it suppresses aggro. Using it when you're fluctuating red accomplishes almost nothing. You've already accumulated aggro, which Diversion would otherwise prevent. As for Lucid. What? RDM and SMN essentially weave it on CD while BLM uses it exclusively for aggro management. If you're depending on the MP tick... you've royally screwed up your rotation. Regardless, forcing a tank back into tank stance is a far bigger loss. In fact, it impacts them to such an extent it's an overall rDPS gain for makes to sacrifice Forbidden Chakra—a 250 oGCD—than a tank into tank stance to use an aggro combo. Unless a Warrior can use Unchained to mitigate some of the damage loss.

So no, there is zero excuse for you not utilizing these abilities beyond steer stubbornness. Because of that, you have two options, learn how to properly use Diversion and Lucid for aggro management or tank the floor until you do. I will not make any effort to save you when have two options to cut your aggro.