Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

[TheMightyMollusk]

So am I still bad if I rip threat despite using Diversion and Shadewalker on CD? Because that keeps happening to me lately. And I'm not even a good ninja, I'm decent at most.

Enmity is the whole party's job, yes, but that still includes the tanks.

[Jollyy5]

So am I still bad if I rip threat despite using Diversion and Shadewalker on CD? Because that keeps happening to me lately. And I'm not even a good ninja, I'm decent at most.

Enmity is the whole party's job, yes, but that still includes the tanks.

Yes. Go sit in a corner and twiddle your thumbs until the tank has managed to establish solid aggro.

How dare you hit hard? Sheesh...

[ShadowYomi]

I feel that shirking the dps will lead to you slowing down the run also, or more i was kicked for this tank topics. Lucid and diversion can only do so much unless they shorten the cd. I mean even if you kill the dps unless it is a dungeon or alliance raid you either have to wait until the group wipes or them choosing to not respawn and still getting loot.

[Frizze]

I give one warning, then I shirk.

A DPS not using their agro reducers is playing bad. You shirking them is much worse(depending on what kind of "warning" youre giving in chat, it might even qualify as ban-able harassment). And no, you arent Jesus in this scenario - youre Judas betraying the party for a petty reason.

[Lorgana]

A DPS not using their agro reducers is playing bad. You shirking them is much worse(depending on what kind of "warning" youre giving in chat, it might even qualify as ban-able harassment). And no, you arent Jesus in this scenario - youre Judas betraying the party for a petty reason.

I literally say " cut your aggro" or " watch emnity" if there is no reply either in the form of cutting emnity or them communicating that it's on CD then at that point death will become their aggro dump. I'm a BIS paladin, if I'm losing emnity to anyone in casual content it's because they're not using their emnity skills either correctly or at all. Is it a harsh lesson? Yes, but then again when I see people on this forum complaining about how we need to nerf mist dragon, sometimes harsh lessons are required to git good.

[MoroMurasaki]

Rather than respond to individual, silly posts about threat management - if you're ripping off of a tank in even semi-current gear outside of an opener one of you is not doing your job. As I know how to open on tanks I will assume a dps pulling off of me isn't managing their enmity properly and then it becomes their problem. I have no problem saving a cooldown because they wanted to eat a tankbuster.

I'm not saying you people haven't encountered tanks that don't know how to play, I'm nearly BiS on RDM and I know the pain of pulling off of a tank when Diversion and Lucid are on CD. The problem then lies with the tank.

The initial post I responded to wanted to throw all the blame anyone pulling threat onto the tank. This is not the case. If you are too inept to use threat mitigation then by all means tank the floor. You're more useful as a CD than a dps.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Expecting other roles to manage aggro just so they can stay out of tank stance and dps is not actually in anyone's job description. Is actually what I said. If you can stay in DPS stance and keep enmity then I've got no argument. If you can't, then you can adjust by going back into tank stance or enmity combos or... whatever. Aggro dumping is for when there's some reason why the tank has lost aggro and you're suddenly about to be Enemy Number One. It's not something you should be having to hit every time it's off CD while your tank is whaling away in Defiance or Blood Sword (unless you've got a party that's prepared for that--I know you need all the DPS you can get in high-end). I'm tired of this thing going around where you're suddenly a crappy tank if you can't stay in DPS mode or if you use enmity combos. It's making inexperienced tanks do really stupid things because that's what they think is expected.

Aggro dumping is a stop-gap to not dying. It is not there to empower tanks. If a tank is struggling, then yes, the party needs to adjust. But if that tank is struggling to live up to the hype instead of doing their job, well... My enmity skills (or skill, depending on the job) are essentially for ME, and have a long cool-down. Good luck.

Yes, yes it is. Aggro is a party responsibility. Telling the tank to go back into tank stance and do enmity combos is basically saying "I'm too lazy to press this button which has zero impact on my rotation or ability to DPS." Meanwhile, it's a significant DPS loss for tanks, and can throw off their rotation. So no, I am under no obligation to save you because you can't be bothered to use Diversion or Lucid Dreaming.

Good luck you say? I'm not the one who will die to the boss' tank busters. Aggro won't be an issue afterwards~!

[MetalSnakeXI1]

Rather than respond to individual, silly posts about threat management - if you're ripping off of a tank in even semi-current gear outside of an opener one of you is not doing your job. As I know how to open on tanks I will assume a dps pulling off of me isn't managing their enmity properly and then it becomes their problem. I have no problem saving a cooldown because they wanted to eat a tankbuster.

I'm not saying you people haven't encountered tanks that don't know how to play, I'm nearly BiS on RDM and I know the pain of pulling off of a tank when Diversion and Lucid are on CD. The problem then lies with the tank.

The initial post I responded to wanted to throw all the blame anyone pulling threat onto the tank. This is not the case. If you are too inept to use threat mitigation then by all means tank the floor. You're more useful as a CD than a dps.

On my end I used my only aggro mitigation tools as a bard....Refresh and Tactician,the problem being is that those two have quite a long cool down and only one ranged DPS can use it at a time(my refresh went on cooldown when a machinest used refresh) so I was doing my part

Sure blame shouldn't be always thrown at tanks and I'm a Dark Knight myself.....but still the ones I got on O11 were....something else

[Vidu]

So am I still bad if I rip threat despite using Diversion and Shadewalker on CD? Because that keeps happening to me lately. And I'm not even a good ninja, I'm decent at most.

Enmity is the whole party's job, yes, but that still includes the tanks.

No, you're not and no one said that?

Its very simple really:
Enemity control is - as you said yourself - a party responsibility.
As DPS or healer your tools for that are your aggro-dumps. If you use them, you're doing your part and you're good - the rest is on the tank(s) then.
If you're not making use of those tools, you're NOT doing your job and are making the tank pick up your slack, by sacrifing damage that they're dealing to help with the also shared parties job of killing stuff.

aggro drops on cooldown/being used throughout the fight = good player
aggro drops ignored = bad player

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

No, they're not - or at least not only that.
Look at skills like Shadewalker and Diversion (one a build-in ninja-skill and the other used to be a build-in blackmage-skill, before it become a general role-action): Both reduce the aggro you generate for a given time-frame. They're not "oh shit, I'm about to rip aggro!"-buttons like Lucid Dream or Refresh. They're essiantially telling you "Here, press this button, to make the whole tanking easier for your tank" - and it doesnt matter if that tank is struggeling or someone who cleared Ultimate World First. It makes it easier for the tank, who can in turn play more efficient, if YOU play more efficient.
Using your logic I could argue that a tank shouldnt have to press defensive cooldowns, because its a healers job to keep them healed all the time - and sure, you can get through the game by not making use of your CDs, but that moment you're playing bad. As tank I'm not hitting my CDs to help my healer, but because they're skills that I have at my disposal and that I personally want to make use of to play my class to the best of its potential.

You have those skills. Make use of them to support your tank and your party. Forcing someone to play less efficient, forcing a person who actually cares about performing to the best of their and their jobs potential, because you're to lazy to press your aggro-dumps or because you have this weird notion of how a tank should be played...

It should be in your own best intrest to enable the tank to stay out of tank-stance as much as possible - makes the ran go faster, after all. And if all that it takes from you is pressing a button every 2 minutes its hard for me to get why you'd argue against that.

It goes like this: First time I'm red I pop the thing, no questions because hey--it happens. Second time, I'm looking at gear and popping whatever I have, usually a defensive if the aggro skill is still on CD. Third time I'm looking at stances and what is actually going on. If its not tank stuff, I will probably suggest doing tank stuff (or give advice if it's just inexperience). This entirely depends on how far apart these happen. Because obviously, it's easier just to pop the thing. Being in a state of constant yellow is something I've come to expect nowadays and I don't waste my CD on it.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. Enmity skills for DPS are there for when the DPS have aggro and need to get rid of it. Just because they CAN be used to help the tank stay in DPS stance does NOT mean they're a tank buff (obviously it's a dick move to put Shadow Walker on anyone that's not a tank but the same could be said of Shirk and that seems to be the current go-to for 'punishing' people who don't fall in line). If this happens a few times in a duty and well within my CD window then yeah, I'm pressing the thing. However those weren't added to the toolkit with the intent to let tanks languish in DPS stance. It's there to help the tank by virtue of 'hey, here's this thing that belongs to you--please take it so I don't die'.

(Also, if Diversion is what Quelling Strikes used to be then it was never a built-in BLM skill. It was a skill we borrowed from Bards back in the day when cross-class was a thing. BLM's had no built-in enmity skills. -Just 3 defensive ones.)

Lucid is part of my mana management package. That's primarily what I use it for. Especially for SMN or RDM. I can be a little more generous with it on healer, as long as it's not SCH (which is one of the biggest mana-drains). In any case, it's not for wasting. It's for emergencies outside of that. The only real argument you have is with Shadow-Walker and Diversion because they literally ONLY affect enmity. And that's for melee/ranged. So yeah, asking me to sacrifice an essential part of my job's support infrastructure to help your role be more efficient is... just as bad as what you claim I'm doing by NOT DOING THAT.

If you're not using CD's to help anyone but yourself play more efficiently as you mentioned here: As tank I'm not hitting my CDs to help my healer, but because they're skills that I have at my disposal and that I personally want to make use of to play my class to the best of its potential, then explain to me why I'm suddenly expected to do anything less for my own class? Even if I was melee, having to constantly manage personal aggro because the aggro guy is busy not doing aggro is still a sacrifice and a distraction from what I'm supposed to be doing. Which is damage or healing. Or even tanking. (I have those. Not too good with them but I has.)

We are not here to enable any one class. We are here to get through content. Putting the burden of your job onto others so you can do a different one is not what anyone is here for (unless you planned ahead). And again, it's not saying I won't press buttons. It's saying I won't press buttons for YOU and only YOU (because you're obviously not doing that for me either).

I feel like people are trying to pass this off as the new meta party mentality. I'm down with being more aware of personal enmity. I'm not down with that as the expectation so a certain job doesn't have to do it's job. :/