A question for the BLU peeps

[Melichoir]

Blue mage was never about learning the spells. It's about using them.

Learning spells is just means to an end.

What issue? Some nonsense about how Blue Mage isn't Blue Mage if its not overpowered?

This doesnt help the point. It actually is in favor of my point.

This means that learning spells from monsters is a more convoluted version of NPC quests. Thats it. And you arent learning monster spells, youre learning a spell that is supposed to look like a monster spell but isnt.

And it has nothing to do with being OP. It has everything to do with rebalancing a spell that MONSTERS USE for PC use and what that means in regards to what the class is when you break it down and what that means in principle to the concept of BLU.

Youre not learning bad breath as a morbol does it. Youre learning a skill that mimics bad breath in very small ways. If the player version of Bad Breath is a small aoe cone, 1 status effect that is set, and does moderate damage, is it the same skill as Morbols Bad Breath?

No. Its not. Its a lesser variation of that skill, but it is not that same skill. So youre not really learning the monster skill, but some imitation of one that is balanced for party play. This means, broadly, that any skill you learn will be balanced with other classes in mind and will be in many respects analogous to those classes. Youre not learning the monster skill, youre learning a skill from interacting with a monster that is on the same power curve as every other class.

Nope. A mishmash of unbalanced monster skills that don't form a coherent rotation and can't be used in any relevant content does not count as a class/job. (That's the bloody issue!) They would, in my example, literally design one full job including job quests plus some disconnected skills for the side content they have planned. Bard is not two classes in one just because they have Perform skills.

Pretty much wrong on all accounts here and youre trying to to relate bard's perform skill to BLU. Playstyle is based on a few things, such as how you use skills and in how you interact with the game. I've explained this already pretty thoroughly. Rather than a playstyle that focuses on resource management/rotations/priority systems, the playstyle would be one that focuses more on using the right skills for the right situation to overcome what would normally take a party to do. This playstyle is only possible if the skills are powerful. This doesnt mean you couldnt have rotations or priority or even resource management, but unlike OTHER classes, youre skill use and decision making wouldnt revolve around this. Best way I could equate this is to any action game where you gradually learn new moves over time and are free to use them as the situation calls for it.

Furthermore, cause youre so keen on ignoring this, let me reiterate - To create a solo content class that operates completely without a party WITHOUT rebalancing dungeons or content would require it to have one set of playstyle to make it remain interesting, and then have another playstyle that is balanced for party play that ALSO makes it interesting. You would need two playstyles for ways to interact with the game. And it wouldnt be a matter of adjust 'power'. You can consider that out by simply looking at how SYNCING works in the game. Run a dungeon unsynced and tell me how often you use full rotations and proper mechanics. This is a game design perspective: Having one class have two separate playstyles and the work that would be required to balance for it would be costly.

You mention (below) that you dont think people would be jealous? Tell me something, do you think people would be a-ok if the devs said "Well, we were gonna put dancer and Gunblade in, but we scrapped those plans because we decided to focus on just BLU, which will probably end up in a DPS slot btw."

Think people would be alright with that? Tanks and Healers dont get any new class to play because devs spent their time trying to balance BLU. And before the obligatory "Theyd be able to do all 3", everything takes time and money, and there is a finite amount of it, whether you like it or not. I get teh impression that the Devs were probably AWARE that there would be unhappy people over the limited class thing, but between extreme balance issues and providing players what they felt they would like to play more, they went with it. Because I highly doubt the first thing they did was go "Well you know what, screw players. Lets make a limited class."

It's more likely, when it comes to development, that BLU has been on the books for a while adn theyve been trying to figure out a way to make it work and couldnt. And short of scrapping it, someone suggested the limited class idea.

Why? Because Limited Jobs were a bad idea to begin with and any suggestions to fix it are aimed to not make things worse than they have to be. I know the devs have a tendency to stubbornly ride their mistakes to the bitter end (Diadem) but that's really not necessary. I don't believe that getting the best possible outcome for Blue Mage will spark jealousy in those who play other jobs, because Conjurers got their mount quest and Bards got their Perform system without any such controversy.

You dont know it was a bad idea to begin with. All you have, much like most of us, is speculation. Youre assuming theyre going to be bad, but you have zero proof outside of speculation based on what little information we have. Notice how Im not saying that BLU will be the most awesome and amazing thing? Im fairly certain that my position has been "Lets see what its going to be like." but the position of detractors is "Ive made my verdict - its gonna suck no matter what." Which is unfortunate because I get the vibe a lot of people will just hate the class, no matter how fun it could be. They'll hate it on principle with their vision of it being colored by subjective opinions theyve argued on the internet over. You want to have issue with it? Go for it. Do it afte ryou play it and see how it works out. If its as bad as you thought itd be, then write a forum post and let the devs know. Give feedback after youve had time to play with it.

Situational stuff was part of the BLU identity, was it not? The player using Bad Breath rarely could also be achieved by giving it a resource cost that makes it worthwhile only in AoE cleave situations. For single target you'd use some other monster skill. And another skill for sustained multi-target, etc. The filler skills would also be learned from monsters so I don't see the problem. If I go in the open world and fight regular monsters of my level, the skills they use are often quite unimpressive and would be perfect as fillers without any nerfing.

So, without applying anything I said, youd be ok with unimpressive monster skills as 'filler'? Color me a touch skeptical.

Second, do me this favor. Level up a new character, no special gear. Then go fight some monsters and stand in their pancakes. Tell me if that skill doesnt hurt then. Even those 'filler' skills hurt if youre not overgeared, as theyre supposed to. You mistake the fact some people are over geared for world monsters as those skills being weak, or how an AI has a limited use on a skill, but in the hands of a player who can adapt and think, those skills gain power.

Tbh, implying that BLU must be overpowered in order to be "true BLU" and dismissing any counter examples as "not true BLU" pretty much fits the definition of the No True Scotsman fallacy. The only things that actually seem to define a BLU are that 1) they can learn skills from monsters and 2) they fight using skills learned from monsters (Blue Magic).

Youre not reading what Im saying and as a result, youre coming to the wrong conclusion. As I said, again and again, IF you leave the skills AS IS, they would be to powerful for party play. There is no getting around this fact. Other people who dont even agree with me broadly acknowledge this point. The skills would have to see power reductions for party play. TO REDUCE POWER, it would mean making them in line with ALL OTHER CLASSES. In the case of bad breath, it would lose almost ALL it's status effects, its range would be greatly reduced, as would its power. After all that rebalancing, it is not he same skill as the original monster skill and would be as powerful as any other classes. This would invariably mean that the original possible and most likely playstyle would not work, and would need a new playstyle. That new playstyle would have to incorporate elements other classes already use as a means to remain balanced. The rebalancing of skills and putting in a combat system more similar to other classes (at a base level) would throw into question the point of learning monster skills. As at that point, youre not really learning those skills, but rather youre just on an NPC quest that has RNG involved as to whether or not youll get your skill in a timely manner. When you go down to the basics, this makes that iteration of BLU teh same as other casters, except it has a harder method of getting its skills. Thats it.

The fun thing was, considering FFXI, BLU would be possible as is in a party environment IF the game was more nuanced. FFXI worked this out because there was a lot of factors that worked out in balancing the class and skills and allowed the skills to exist much more closely to their original design. We dont have that. It's unfortunate, but teh simplified system here is what is hurting BLU from being BLU in ffxiv.