Healer Horror Stories: Redux

[LazyTitan87]

I had a fun one last night. I queued into the Lighthouse for a run for my coin and crystal and it was bad. B had a team wipe on the first three bosses (I was in C) and my own team was dying too much. I got to LB3 two times (just to save the raise MP), which isn't normal in a run for me.

However, that isn't the horror story part. The math boss was at 3% when I notice that everyone is running in place. It took a minute, but then it happened. 90ked. My internet provider was doing a one hour maintenance it turns out. All of that work...wasted.

I'm still a bit angry about it.

[tinythinker]

My worst enemy in Expert is DRK. Most of them aren't ... hm ... "great".

Roughly 85% of the time I've been told that it's probably the player (inexperience, managing the CDs, etc.); 15% that it's the job. Maybe it's both - mostly one and a little the other? Wondering now how things for tanking and the tank-healer relationship will look in 5.0, especially with the shadow theme. Some DRKs think they will get a significant rework as this a darker-themed expansion is up their alley...

[Lorgana]

Roughly 85% of the time I've been told that it's probably the player (inexperience, managing the CDs, etc.); 15% that it's the job. Maybe it's both - mostly one and a little the other? Wondering now how things for tanking and the tank-healer relationship will look in 5.0, especially with the shadow theme. Some DRKs think they will get a significant rework as this a darker-themed expansion is up their alley...

Inexperience with the job doesn't really computer to being terrible I can DRK in savage even though I'm the main paladin because fundamentally the concept is the same, CDs on TB's, SW instead of SENT TBN instead of Sheltron. Of course, there's far more in terms of optimization but as long as you have some experience tanking, in general, you shouldn't suck enough to result in casual content wipes. I would say 99% of the time its the player because they're bad to combine that with the fact that DRK is definitely the hardest of the tanks to actually play well (because the class is so bad) then you've got a recipe for disaster. Alot of players THINK they're playing the class right but don't often look too deeply into whether they are or they aren't.

[EaMett]

Roughly 85% of the time I've been told that it's probably the player (inexperience, managing the CDs, etc.); 15% that it's the job. Maybe it's both - mostly one and a little the other? Wondering now how things for tanking and the tank-healer relationship will look in 5.0, especially with the shadow theme. Some DRKs think they will get a significant rework as this a darker-themed expansion is up their alley...

Oddly enough some of my best runs have been with DRK. Other good runs have been with WAR and some of my worst runs have been with WAR. odd how it works.

[RopeDrink]

Think of it like a MOBA. There are basics and fundamentals that apply across the board - if people don't 'get' them, it won't really matter what they play as the weaknesses will still show regardless. It doesn't mean they're terrible players, just that they have blatant gaps in their game. In a MOBA, positioning is one basic (but vital) factor whether you are a tank, support or damage dealer - people who aren't good at it won't do very well with any hero unless carried. The amount of players out there that couldn't position their own underwear is exceptionally high (and it's cute how so many commit proverbial suicide and then choose to blame everyone else for the fault they can't see). Much like positioning in a MOBA, it's no different to enmity/threat in a MMORPG - you don't need to have played a tank to know the basics of enmity. Even first-time MMORPG DPS or Healers have time to realize that them having aggro in threatening content is typically a big Aww-Hell-Naww.

Now, let's say you've mained X tank for Y period and decide to swap - yes, the abilities are different and it likely has a different rotation or mechanical aspect, but the fundamentals are pretty much the same. A good [insert tank here] who understands enmity and when/when not to use defensives (or just plain and simply knows the content they're walking into), well, they could likely swap to a tank they've never played before and still do a decent job outside of class inexperience. Certainly won't play them perfectly and probably won't be entirely comfortable (initially), but they'd know what needs to be done and typically how to do it, given time to figure out which buttons actually do what you want.

[tinythinker]

Inexperience with the job doesn't really computer to being terrible I can DRK in savage even though I'm the main paladin because fundamentally the concept is the same, CDs on TB's, SW instead of SENT TBN instead of Sheltron. Of course, there's far more in terms of optimization but as long as you have some experience tanking, in general, you shouldn't suck enough to result in casual content wipes. I would say 99% of the time its the player because they're bad to combine that with the fact that DRK is definitely the hardest of the tanks to actually play well (because the class is so bad) then you've got a recipe for disaster. Alot of players THINK they're playing the class right but don't often look too deeply into whether they are or they aren't.

I just know my own experience and what others report, so I share then read and consider feedback. I've even had one player who prefers tanking who thinks their DRK is squishier than their WAR. Still, only a few people who have discussed this think it's because the job is harder to manage or has some Achille's heal, while most (I estimated 85% in my prior comment) of the people I've communicated with say it's probably the player. And inexperience doesn't have to just mean with the job, it can also be for the role.

It just seems (to me) that even what seem to be the more skilled and experienced DRKs are more likely to see larger health drops than other tank jobs on average (but not necessarily every time). That doesn't make them a big risk or the job a bad job, yet I've wondered why that might be so if is true beyond just my own limited observation. Because then knowing that reason might help me do better when I heal. For example, it helped me a lot when I learned that if I see a Living Dead text macro I need to top the tank off as fast as possible. And in this thread I learned that some DRKs use abilities that work by taking damage, which doesn't happen if I stun trash packs with Holy.

In any case, on my end what appear to be the more skilled and experienced DRKs have less of a health drop than the DRKs who appear to struggle. They recover well from such drops and can manage pulls just fine. The ones who struggle... don't recover so well. Or at all. They just eat a steady diet of oGCD heals and Cure II spam until the pull is done... or they die.

I don't play the job (or role) so I can't say it is good or bad or well-designed or not, only that I've read plenty of comments about people hoping it gets fixes/buffs for 5.0. And yes, I've run with both amazing and struggling Warriors and Paladins, the only difference I notice is that those jobs appear to keep their health more even over the course of a pull.

Such a perspective could easily be observer bias or sampling limitation or various confounding variables. But honestly I run 100% DF roulettes, that's my sample pool based on one player. So it doesn't really demonstrate anything significant.

[tinythinker]

Oddly enough some of my best runs have been with DRK. Other good runs have been with WAR and some of my worst runs have been with WAR. odd how it works.

Yes, exactly. There are some healers who also seem to think DRKs are more likely to have issues during trash pulls, while others disagree. Which led me to wonder if there is something in the mechanics that could give some healers different experiences. Like an average healer might have issues with a certain tank job but a great healer wouldn't.

However, differential player skill and experience remains just as if not more valid of an explanation for what some of us think we're seeing. Plus I try to remind myself that when people start believing their own perspective is *the* way to see something, and that a pattern they think they see *must* be real, they will pay attention to/recall what fits their expectations and forget what doesn't. It becomes self-reinforcing. In terms of games like FFXIV that can turn into unproductive or destructive stereotypes about roles or jobs.

The people on the forums who say they have experience with tanking jobs are nearly uniform so far in siding with a difference between players over other possible factors. So, I don't have much I can use to argue against that, other than to wonder for example how a pull would be different in terms of weaknesses or mechanics between one tank job and another.

I only wonder about things like this occasionally on the forums. In-game I'm just trying not to make any unforced errors while keeping the party alive and doing mechanics properly. I figure unless someone is being toxic or having seriously massive issues keeping on top of things, I should probably worry more about my own role rather than someone else's.

[tinythinker]

You can not pay me enough to heal pugs. I save my healer for friends, myself and if I am feeling charitable, Eureka to help rez and heal while capping tomes.

Heh. All I've ever done is this game is heal roulette pugs. Then again, maybe that's why I take such long breaks... *hmmm*

Pug healing has advantages and disadvantages but for some players solo queuing into roulette is how they level and gear up. It isn't *all* bad, but a string of bad runs can make it feel that way...

One difference I've noticed that might help newer or struggling healers is that over time I am getting a sense of what is normal for different instances with regard to tank squishiness and also where the line tends to be between reasonable (and unreasonable) expectations on my healing. But before that starts becoming less murky put healing can be very stressful as you wonder if you are to blame every time there is a wipe.

( Of course for Besame do what you're comfortable with and what is worth your time. Don't intend to suggest anyone should run healers with random strangers if they don't want to. Better than being bitter and burned out. Just reflecting on the experience of all roulettes all the time. )

[Transient_Shadow]

So I decided to gear up my ast with the weapon from sigmascape normal. Pretty easy enough besides the long que time. But on my second run I got a pld who could not mitigate any damage. like the tank buster reduced his health to roughly 20%. I looked at his gear at he has a mish mash of gear... a lot of it below lvl 70... some of it lvl 60... like below augmented shire lvl 60.....

I of course mention this and then the war decides to take offense as if I was talking to him. Pld then says that it's not his main. I honestly don't see this as a decent excuse for being under geared. Like messing up your rotation and the like are totally fine. we all have to start learning at some point. But its a discourtesy to your party when you take the helm of the raid and can't even tank the boss.

[Brightamethyst]

How is that even possible? Don't you need at least i330 or something just to queue for it?